Devah Curlechéile: How Conscious Touch Regulates the Nervous System & Rewires Trauma in Your Body | #156

While the sexual wellness industry exploded 850% since 2020, most approaches still miss the mark. In this episode, we sit down with Devah Curlechéile, an Irish sensual remembrance coach who's pioneering a radical approach to sexual healing that doesn't require years of talk therapy—or even taking your clothes off. This refreshing conversation offers a compassionate, trauma-informed approach that honors both ancient wisdom and modern understanding of nervous system healing.

EPISODE HIGHLIGHTS

• "Worrying is praying for the worst possible outcome" - Devah's perspective on anxiety patterns
• Love as medicine: Devah explains how showing up in "complete loving acceptance" is the core of his healing approach
• The presence factor: Why being calm, slow, and present creates the foundation for healing touch
• Beyond goal-oriented sex: Moving from "did you get some?" language to co-creative intimacy
• Eye gazing as medicine: How this simple practice can feel like a psychedelic experience
• 24-hour healing sessions: Starting with herbal tea to activate relaxation responses, then moving through breath work, touch, and emotional processing
• Cultural programming: How shame around sexuality affects our nervous system's ability to receive pleasure

LINKS & RESOURCES MENTIONED IN THE EPISODE CAN BE FOUND ON THE WEBSITE HERE

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Transcript

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Introduction to Healing Intimacy

Willow 1:32

What if the intimacy you crave isn't just about pleasure, but about healing parts of yourself you didn't even know were wounded. I'm Dr. Willa Brown. I'm here with Leah Piper.

Meet Devah: Sensual Remembrance Coach

Willow 1:44

We are the co-host of the Sex Reimagined podcast, and we're so excited to introduce you today to Devah, a sensual remembrance coach who works privately with individuals from all over the world, helping his clients sexually heal, not from a place of needing to fix something, but a gentle awakening into what's always existed deep within.

Leah 2:08

You are hopefully a long, longtime listener so you know what's coming up next. But if you are a new listener, please everybody all at once, all together now tune in, turn on, and fall in love with Devah.

Announcer 2:22

Welcome to the Sex Reimagined Podcast, where sex is shame-free and pleasure forward. Let's get into the show.

Leah 2:32

Devah

Willow 2:33

We're so excited that you're here. This has been a long time coming this interview, so, um, we're just thrilled to have you welcome from, uh, Kauai.

Devah 2:41

Thank you and thank you both for having me. It's great to be here with two amazing leaders of the sacred sexuality world and healing arts world. So thank you very much for having me on.

Willow 2:52

Yeah. We're so stoked.

Devah's Journey: From Injury to Intimacy

Willow 2:53

So tell us a little bit about what got you into, like, tell us your, genesis story. What got you into doing this work in the first place?

Devah 3:03

Ever since I was young, had my first, we didn't make, we didn't have sex, but I had my first kind of physically intimate partner when I was 16 years old. And I remember from that time it was also before porn was in Ireland. There was no internet in Ireland at that time, so I had no exposure to porn and we just had to kind of figure things out on our own. And I remember always wanting to know how to be better and how to be a better lover. And I carried that. Kind of curiosity through my life, I think. And uh, in 2009, I broke my back and I was in bed for two months, so I thought, what am I gonna do in bed for two months? And I, someone, someone,

Willow 3:39

You found something to play with.

Leah 3:42

I was not expecting that turn. That is so cute. I broke my back, so I went and did a deep dive on how to be a great lover.

Devah 3:50

A, a, a previous lover earlier in my life had introduced the Dao of sexology to me, that book and then the book, the Multiorgasmic man. But at the time, I wasn't ready to receive it, the information, and I kind of dismissed it. And just whenever I broke my back and I was in bed, it came back into my awareness and I downloaded the, the PDF online or read the books and started practicing basically, and had my first self-pleasure practice in bed with my brace all over my chest. Unable to breathe fully, but I was touching myself with oil and really understanding how to connect with myself in the ways that I've been trying to connect with my lovers. And, uh, I had already just been attuned in reiki the year before, so I had already kind of found an energetic attunement at that point in my life.

Leah 4:37

And how old were you when the accident happened? The, I might have missed that. 27.

Cultural Influences on Sexuality

Leah 4:42

Okay. And then I, I have a follow up question, which is, what was it like growing up in Ireland when it comes to coming of age sexually and like culturally what's changed? What stayed the same? You know, growing up in the US in the Midwest, she's on the west coast in California, but we both grew up Catholic for part of my childhood, for all of her childhood. Did you also grow up Catholic? Like I'm starting to get all these cultural questions just like streaming into my consciousness. So I'd love for you to share a little bit about what the sexual temperature's like in Ireland.

Devah 5:16

Now it's pretty good. I think, you know, um, when I was, I never saw two men holding hands or kissing when I was young.

Willow 5:25

Mm.

Devah 5:25

By the time I left Ireland when I was 25, I had seen men kissing on the street one time.

Leah 5:32

Well,

Devah 5:32

Yeah. So the expression of gayness or homosexuality or same sex attraction, all of that, I never had any exposure to it. And I went to a boarding school where it was, uh, you know, people were, if someone did something, how do I say it? Like undesirable or bad, people would say, oh, that's gay

Leah 5:55

Uhhuh

Devah 5:55

So the word gay was associated with negativity. Yeah, exactly. And uh, also just, you know, catholicism and shame around sexuality and everything's hidden in, behind closed doors. And, you know,

Willow 6:09

If you do it, you're a slut and you know you're shamed.

Devah 6:12

exactly. exactly. And all of those things. I was raised in a house where I feel my exploration was mostly supportive. Not, it wouldn't have been supportive with men, but it was with women. So there was no kind of religious guilt or not, not an intense amount of religious guilt that came from my parents, but out in the world it was still there. That programming and how other, how my peers reacted to sexuality, you know, left an imprint on me and I had to work through all of those different things on my, on my journey into sexual

Understanding Sexual Identity

Devah 6:41

embodiment basically.

Willow 6:42

do you, identify as as bisexual

Devah 6:45

I try not to identify myself, but I do. Yeah, exactly. would say, I would say pansexual, if anything at all, and I just see people's souls and their essence and that that attracts me kind of thing. Mm-hmm.

Leah 6:57

And were.

Willow 6:58

long did it take you to like, come into that, like sovereignty of holding that like, I, I just am attracted to souls. Like, you know, there's such a journey of like exploring different genders and sexuality and all the pieces.

Devah 7:11

Mm-hmm. Yeah, I think one of the biggest pieces for me personally was just trying to understand if I did enjoy being intimate with, with men or not. 'cause being intimate with men and being intimate with women is a whole different journey. There were, you know, my first ever intimate experience with a man was amazing. And then the next few, like five, six, I was just kinda like, I'd rather just stay at home and, you know, pleasure myself. I don't see the point, why would I do this? And then I thought to myself exactly. And then when it wasn't enjoyable, I, I thought, oh, I must be straight. So I had this confusing journey of, oh, oh, I had this connection with a man, and then it, I didn't feel it for a while. But I was kind of consistently feeling connection with women. So it would, it would confuse me, am I, do I like women? And then I'd have a really good experience with, with a man I'd, yeah, sorry. Do I like men? And then I'd have a really good experience with a man and I'd be like, oh, does this mean I'm gay? And then I'd, I'd swing back and forth between the two sort of thing until,

Willow 8:11

So you had a whole journey of that?

Devah 8:14

exactly. And what kept me going was, can I love a man the way I love a woman? Or can Yeah. Can I experience that sense of union in love making the way that I experience it with women, kind of thing. And eventually I discovered that I could. So yeah. And it's, it's my journey with men and how dynamic that was, that has also been one of the motivating factors in me stepping into this work and wanting to, you know. Many women have asked me, can you please teach men what you know at this point in my journey, I've made loads of mistakes in the past, don't get me wrong, on my own learning path. 'cause I didn't have a mentor and I didn't have a guide, so I had to figure it out myself. But, but um, yeah, I have a desire now at this point with what I know to share that with the world sort of thing.

Leah 9:02

What is it that women want you to teach other men?

Willow 9:04

Yeah, that was my question. Like what's the theme that you see men needing

Leah 9:10

questions? I wanna hear from the, I wanna hear the words of the women to you of going, what is it exactly that they want you to tell men? What is it that you have that they don't think men have up?

Willow 9:21

There you go.

The Art of Touch and Connection

Devah 9:23

The number one thing I hear from people is, I've never been touched like that before.

Willow 9:28

Hmm

Devah 9:29

So that's the main thing that I would like to share with people is how to share touch. Yeah, exactly. In a way that's, that creates intimacy, safety, connection, and a desire for both parties to continue connecting

Willow 9:44

Mm-hmm.

Devah 9:45

authentically.

Leah 9:46

So can you des and this, this, what we're asking is hard to articulate. So I wanna like just preface these next series of questions knowing that if it was easy to articulate, everyone would know it. Um, but I think it's important as educators, as we figure out the language so that someone who's hearing this can actually start to orient to their own touch. How do I make this touch safer, more conscious? You said a bunch of beautiful words. So, um, what would you say is a distinction that someone could maybe shift in how they're touching that maybe they haven't realized yet that would give someone that feeling of, I'm opening to this person's touch versus this resistance to someone's touch.

Devah 10:33

that's such a long answered question there. 'cause as you, as you both experience getting to the touch, half of that equation, if not more than half of that equation, you know, so.

Willow 10:47

Absolutely. There's so much resistance to like, you know, touching people sexually and sensually and, and, and

Creating Safe and Intimate Spaces

Willow 12:33

so much, um, uncertainty in not knowing if you're doing it right. And, um, I feel like one thing I'm constantly teaching men is like, you gotta make your hands magnetic. You wanna make her come to you, like, stop coming at her with your fingertips. That's not hot, it doesn't work, you know?

Devah 12:50

And I, so before, before even moving into touch though, there's, you know, elements like presence,

Leah 12:56

Mm-hmm.

Devah 12:57

just being present with someone and active listening and getting curious and wanting to know more about the other person. And being slow, super slow and present and calm so that there can be regulation found in nervous systems before we move into any form of physical touch or intimacy.

Leah 13:16

Well, those are really great places for us to kind of touch into is, um, being calm and how hard that can be, especially if you're like excited,

Devah 13:28

Mm-hmm.

Leah 13:28

you know, or you're feeling anxious, like either you're excited about the connection that you're hoping to achieve, you are nervous that you might fail. There's anxiety that's just sort of natural regarding, you know, feeling flirtatious. And then there's also social anxiety that can be really debilitating for people who don't feel like they're good at this kind of thing. Um, escalating intimacy. And so I'm, I'm curious, like how do you help an individual? Um, we could use men in this example to just kind of slow down.

Devah 14:02

Uh, a starting point is just making men aware of the language around how men relate with women and how men relate with each other as well. But there's all, there's all of these words such as, did you get some,

Willow 14:16

Right,

Devah 14:17

did you give, her an orgasm? Yeah. Did you get laid?

Willow 14:21

right. It's all about what did you get, what did you, what did you give? Not what did you offer? Like

Devah 14:27

yeah. Or what

Willow 14:27

what? What did you experience? Yeah.

Devah 14:30

Exactly.

Leah 14:31

did you co-create? Yeah, say more.

Devah 14:33

Yeah. So just within that, that's the first awareness is are you going at this whole experience trying to get something out of it? Because women, and, and a lot of men as well, are just very, very attuned to the subtleties of an energetic dy dynamic. And if that's in the air, but it's not being spoken of, it's already being felt and it's gonna create some layer of distance or mistrust or a lack of safety within the, within the experience that's being shared. So first of all, just, uh, helping a man to understand because the patriarchy has sometimes objectified women that our partner is not something to be used or to get an experience out of or to Yeah, just to get, get something from, uh, you know, we can, we're about to step into an experience that can be beautiful for both of us, healing for both of us, deeply intimate for both of us, and we can both share that together. It's something that we both consensually agree to share together. And then there's consent as well.

Leah 15:35

I love that, introducing that as a, as a cultural shift in framework. Um, that there's a different experience that we're missing out on when we're only coming from, um, these benchmarks of having like reached certain destinations in sex. I mean, one of the perfect examples of that is did you hit first second base, or a home run? You know, I mean, how many of us are raised with that idea to identify our initiations in sexuality per partner? And then we are either adequate or inadequate depending on what we achieve as like what the goal is. And we're not even sitting with a partner to talk about shared goals or desires to explore. So really interesting.

Willow 16:28

Yeah, and I think what you're talking about David, too, like just getting someone's nervous system to drop into a more receptive, open state, dropping them into maybe a level of presence that they've not Experienced before that they rarely experience, um, is part of what sets the tone for a more healing

The Healing Power of Intimacy

Willow 16:50

journey for them. Because not only are we, when we're doing sexual healing, we're healing on every single level of what it means to be a human being. It's physical. Yes. But it's psychological. It's emotional and it's spiritual too. And so, you know, I feel like what you're, what you're speaking to, like even before touch, you know, just getting, getting really attuned with somebody and being able to attune to yourself so that you can attune to the other more fully, um, really, really lays a foundation for, you know, the alchemy of healing within sexuality. And I'd love to hear from you like why that, why that is so transformational. 'Cause I mean, I know you see your clients just completely do full one eighties, like completely transformed. So.

Devah 17:43

Um, if we consider how intimacy floods the brain with oxytocin and serotonin and all of these beautiful, uh, neurotransmitters that have to do with connection and joy and happiness and ecstatic experience of life, that's also what happens when we take psychedelics. If you think about it. So when people take mushrooms, when people take MDMA, when people take other psychedelics, it's the same experience that their brain gets flooded with the, with the serotonin. And we all have seen research recently that these therapies are, you know, gaining recognition in professional fields and how effective they've been. And sex is a way that we can do that without the psychedelics. I'm not, I'm not saying that we don't need psychedelics. I really, I think psychedelics are great as well, and a great form of therapy if someone chooses that, that path. And also true relaxation and connection and intimacy. We can also reach those states where the brain is flooded with oxytocin and serotonin. And we can have this similar, similar journeys that as we would in psychedelics and within that state when we're feeling so much relaxation and calm and expansion, um, things that are suppressed and stored in our nervous system have space to arise. So if we're constantly putting input into our nervous system and receiving and receiving and receiving, and we're not giving ourselves time and space to experience the emotions that are happening in our nervous system, they sort of have to get buried, let's say, so that we can keep on processing the world. Or maybe we're working and we don't have time to have a nap, or we don't have time to, uh, get angry at something that happens out in the world and we just have to push that down and get on with our on, with our lives. All of that gets kind of suppressed. But in these super expanded, relaxed states full of serotonin and oxytocin and dopamine in our brains, there's an opportunity for our nervous systems to think, wow, you know, this is fine. I feel super relaxed, very open. So now there's spaciousness for whatever suppressed emotion wants to come out to be a arise to, to be felt and move through. So that could be frustration, that could be anger, that could be tears of joy, tears of sadness. That could be, you know so many, so many different emotional experiences, and that's one of the things that's created within sacred sexual healing containers is this atmosphere of complete acceptance. That intimacy and pleasure doesn't have to take The role that we see in Hollywood movies of passionate foreplay rumble in the bed orgasm, whoa, that was amazing. It doesn't have to be so linear and predictable every single time. There can be space for all of the emotional experiences, the full spectrum of the human emotional experience to arise. And we can hold each other in that and help each other to express what's suppressing our nervous system, to heal what's suppressing the nervous system and to move through that and coming out with a more regulated nervous system and a a camera baseline.

Leah 20:41

Beautiful. Yeah. so what would you say, uh, you work with both men and women?

Devah 20:49

I do. Yeah.

Leah 20:50

Uh, do you work with couples too, too, or

Client Experiences and Transformations

Leah 20:52

just individuals? I.

Devah 20:54

I do, I work with people of all sexual, uh, identities and orientations and couples and singles.

Leah 21:02

so I'm, I'm sure there's lots of people listening, going, like, what does a session with Devah look like? Like, is everyone getting naked? Is it just on the phone? How does he invoke this healing experience? What, what kind of questions are you asking them, like, about their story? So take us through like the process of someone contacting you for the first time, and then how you work with someone kind of from start to finish.

Devah 21:27

Okay. Well, it depends, you know, that's very subjective. It depends person to person. Um, there's a form

Leah 21:33

Let's make, can I, can I make up a, a, a person?

Willow 21:37

Make up a person.

Leah 21:38

Yeah. Okay. So there's, well, first, there's a form on your website, so if someone's curious, it would first contact you on this form, right? And that would be like an intake. Yeah. Okay. So this woman, her name is Mary Jo, and she is 54 years old. Um, she's got three kids. One's in college, the other two are in high school. Um, she's going through a horrendous divorce. She hates her body. She is, feels like the life has been sucked out of her. Things are going pretty well at her job, but she just feels worthless since her 25 year marriage has started to dissolve and she's worried about her kids and she's worried that she's also gonna be empty nesting like any second. And will anyone ever find her desirable again? Also, she's never really had great sexual experiences. Like maybe she's had one or two orgasms.

Willow 22:29

Oh, good, good. Uh, persona you created there off the top of your head. Well done Leah.

Leah 22:37

I've met this woman many times.

Willow 22:39

have you now. Okay.

Devah 22:43

So we first would have a call and just schedule a time that works well for both of us. And I would try and encourage her to have time in a space that she won't be interrupted if she has a busy life with her children. So we'll line that up and the main purpose of the call is for the person that I'm working with or this woman, what's her name?

Leah 23:02

Mary Jo.

Devah 23:03

first we, we get on the call, the call and the main purpose of the call is just to ensure that, Mary Jo can feel comfortable in my presence, and that if there's any, you know, nervousness or fears or questions or anything that is in her head that you'd like to get out of her head and, you know, have a, a one-on-one back and forth with me, then with, yeah, we can do that and just go through some different points about how the session might look and, you know, see if it feels aligned for her. If it's something that she wants to move forward with. I never tell a person that I know what's better for their healing than they do.

Leah 23:38

Mm-hmm.

Devah 23:39

So I would suggest to someone a potential course of how we can spend our time together and then they would, uh, decide what feels aligned in that and what doesn't feel aligned in that. And now one thing that does happen all the time is that when I'm on the phone with people, it sounds like it's going to be an overwhelming experience, but then when they're actually in person and they're sharing the experience, they tend to feel quite regulated and calm and surprised at how easy it is for them to settle into the experience.

Willow 24:07

And do you let them know that on the phone?

Devah 24:10

I do. I do. And you know, I always have a little bit of resistance to saying that 'cause it feels like a sales pitch. And I'm not trying to, I'm not trying to sell it. I'm just really trying to, you know, share information exactly that that's true that other people have shared with me. Um, and I, I also will always say afterwards, obviously I don't know what your experience is going to be. 'cause we can never predict everyone's unique. But that just tends to be what has happened in the past sort of thing,

Leah 24:35

Well, you know, what's interesting about that is having taught, you know, seminars for 20 plus years with groups of people, both individuals and couples, these Tantra weekends, one of the things that would just blow the couple's minds, I would have the women for a portion of the class and then Charles would take the in for a portion of the class. And in that I'm coaching the women who are gonna go on this intimate experience. And if they're a woman in the class, many of them, not all of them, will choose one of, uh, a gentleman who's attending the course also as a single. And we have a story that intimacy is impossible unless you know someone really well. You have to know what they do for a living, you have to know their last name. You have to know if they're safe. You have to know what, what they like to do. You have to know about their past relationships. Like you have to know information about somebody in order for you to actually experience intimacy. And, but, and so, and sometimes the married women would be like, you're gonna just let these women just go pick a stranger, a stranger to go receive an intimate massage. Like, are you crazy? I remember being a single person, having the same thoughts in the same class of going, oh my God, am I really gonna pick someone I don't know? Could this go well if I'm not drunk, number one, and I don't know everything about them to ensure that I can trust them. And that I'll be safe. And what was so cool is like we'd come back, everyone come back after having their exercise that night. And the singles sometimes had better experiences than the couples because they didn't have a history. And we would just, we would always, Charles would always make a point of asking one of like the breakthrough experiences, Hey, what's his last name? You know that partner you just had like five orgasms with

Willow 26:18

Yeah. the most amazing breakthrough.

Leah 26:20

like sobbing breakthrough. And she'd be like,

Willow 26:23

I don't know his last

Leah 26:24

what it just illustrates that we have been taught that intimacy is only possible if you have this laundry list of qualities. And the truth of the matter is, is that intimacy, I believe, is an door that opens on your side and you, if you're a trustworthy person, other people will feel that.

Willow 26:44

Mm-hmm.

Leah 26:45

So if you live a life to being a trustworthy person, which I believe the majority of humans do, yes, there's some that don't. Some are are wounded and they get themselves in trouble, but, um, by and large, we can trust other humans and we can drop in. And I think that's pretty amazing when you can step into meditation with someone and do a little bit of eye gazing. That that intimacy can drop in in a nanosecond and it doesn't matter what somebody does for a living, and it doesn't matter what their last name is, and it doesn't matter where they grew up and how many siblings they have.

Devah 27:17

Mm-hmm.

Leah 27:17

Would you say, has that been your experience? Do you think that's why people discover, wow, this wasn't so hard, actually kind of natural. I feel like I've known you my whole life.

Devah 27:26

Yes. Yes. I would say that, and also that piece that you said about eye gazing.

Leah 27:31

Uhhuh.

Devah 27:32

I mean, how amazing and valuable experience is that just to be able to sit across from someone and feel what's happening in your body in the presence of another person without it needing to go anywhere, without them needing to interact or intervene or fix or save, or, you know, judge or any of those, those things that can happen when we're just caught in our minds and running around the world.

Leah 27:51

What's also interesting about eye gazing is that you can feel without language, the things that someone wants to show you, but they don't know how. It's like they, they don't have the words to show you what's in their throat, or they don't have the words to share what's in their heart. But if you are just gazing at them gently, softly, without being a creep,

Devah 28:10

Mm-hmm.

Leah 28:11

which is, you know, a good distinction, wow, you can see and feel someone you can, there's at a level of attunement that can only be reached from that kind of communion. And it's why the old adages, you know, they're the windows to the soul.

Willow 28:26

I feel like eye gazing can be a psychedelic experience and I, I'm sure you both have heard this time and time again when somebody gets out of a session with you or, or up off your table or whatever and they're like, wow, that did feel like doing journey work. You know, it's, and so what you were speaking to earlier, Devah around, um, you know, just that you can get flooded with all the same chemicals that we get flooded with when we reach for, you know, substances outside of ourselves and we actually have all the medicine that we need inside of ourselves. And eye gazing is such a deep medicine that really gets overlooked. How interesting.

Leah 29:07

Yeah. How do you address when people find eye gazing to be very challenging? Because it is something that can feel really, a lot of different emotions can come up when trying to sort out eye gazing.

Devah 29:19

It's the same, I, I think is the first practice that we step into in sessions. But it's the same with every practice. We just allow the space and allow it to be present. And I get curious and I ask, so you know, if they keep looking away, like what's the sensation that's happening in your body that makes you want to look away? And then we just look at that sensation in the body. And I dunno if you've ever heard of tapping EFT.

Willow 29:43

Mm-hmm. Of

Devah 29:45

So I'm also a qualified EFT practitioner. So if the emotional charge is very, very, very strong, we can tap it down. So for people who don't know what EFT is, it's a modality that tops on acupressure points in the body, and it helps to discharge strong emotional experiences. So we'll get the charge of the emotional experience down to a place where they can make sense of it and articulate it. And then we'll just hold it and be present with it. And we'll try and see can we breathe into it and not, you know, not have our bodies look away and just see what, what happens when we breathe and we sigh and we just allow it to be felt rather than pushing it down further into the nervous system, we're running away from

Leah 30:22

Mm-hmm.

Devah 30:23

it be felt. And if, if it's supportive, we can also just, you know, just touch fingers a little bit. Like if we're on a couch, just reach over and hold each other's hands.

Leah 30:33

Uh

Devah 30:33

that, that little piece of co-regulation and that little bit of oxytocin and serotonin often helps people to drop in even Deeper, And the breathing, you know, breathing and sighing. Deeper again. And that just helps us all to drop into our nervous systems and feel comfortable.

Leah 30:49

Is there a specific breathing that you work with? Sorry, Willow.

Willow 30:52

It's okay.

Devah 30:53

I don't do, uh, you know, there's no breathing technique that I work with. Just breathing and sighing, you know how the, the vibration of the vocal cords stimulates the vagus nerve? Yeah. And activate space, everything. Pathetic nervous system. So we just do deep breaths in size and we do that a few different times. And what's really fun

Leah 31:12

I know it make you wanna breathe.

Willow 31:13

Yes. Mask my breathe inside.

Leah 31:15

Yeah, totally.

Devah 31:16

What's really fun about that is at the start of the session, people are usually a little bit constricted in their desire to sigh, you know, and to express themselves or to breathe deep. There might be tightness. Exactly, but then that's a reference point. It's a really encouraging reference point that they have for the rest of their entire session. 'cause as they start to relax. So if in the beginning of the session we go into the session and I say, can you breathe? And inside and someone goes,

Willow 31:44

Totally

Devah 31:44

know, and that's, yeah. And, and that happens quite often, which is, and it's fine and it's perfect. It's where they're at, you

Willow 31:50

Yeah.

Leah 31:51

It's

Devah 31:51

And also Exactly. And also it's a reference point and, you know, it takes encouragement to say, you know, if you, I will explain the vagus nerve thing, and I'll say, if you, if you sigh a little bit louder and longer, you'll actually feel a relaxation in your body, which encourages them to try it. But it still might just be, it might just be, uh, you know, a little, a little, sigh. So without talking too much about it later on, when people are taking big breaths and going, ah,

Leah 32:19

yeah.

Devah 32:19

you say, if you say at that point, do you remember at the start of the session when you couldn't even sigh, look how far you've come, and it's only been X amount of time. And then they, they have that internal marker where they're like, wow, I have come a long way in such a short space of time, you

Leah 32:33

Cool.

Willow 32:33

a, a great nugget. I love that. Okay, I wanna get back to Mary Jo, because Mary Jo, she came and she had a, you know, she's never had a good sexual experience. She's going through this divorce and she is coming to you and she's had her initial conversation. Okay. She feels comfortable with you now. She's, but she, you know, she might be nervous or uncertain about what the heck you guys are gonna do in a session. Like what did, how, and so how do you sort of, um, explain to somebody, you know, what might happen?

Devah 33:08

I would, first of all, on the call deduce the level of sexual trauma or relationship trauma that they're stepping into the experience with. And I always give people obviously the, um, consent, whether they'd like to answer that or not on a call. Um, but it is very, very helpful to know that. 'cause the more details we know about somebody, the, the more safety we can create for them within the experience that we're sharing with them. So I. Most times, actually I don't, I don't think anyone has ever decided not to say it so far. And again, everyone is free to decide on their own, but, um, they usually share with me where they're coming from. So if it's a, a place where there's been a lot of trauma, I will also say to them, not as a sales pitch, but just as a piece of information for them to consider. If there's a lot of emotion that has the possibility to come up and be processed during our time together. Then it's important to create time and space for yourself or to gift yourself time and space basically in order. So, you know, if it's a short session and then a huge emotional experience comes up in the last 30 minutes, and then you're thinking, well, I only have 15 minutes left, kind of thing. So I, I encourage people if they, if they feel that there could be a lot of emotion to come up to be held, that they give themselves time to process that emotion so that they feel regulated by the end of the session and that when they go out into the world, it's not overwhelming with all of the stimulation of being out in the world as well. You know?

Willow 34:33

Mm-hmm.

Devah 34:34

And then, so if there's a lot of, a lot of trauma or a lot of relationship difficulty as well, I'll suggest an extended period of time. And then I'll usually run through what a 24 hour experience would look like so that they can decide, oh, that sounds appropriate, or that doesn't sound like it's something that's aligned with me. And would you like to hear what a 24 hour

Leah 34:53

yeah, absolutely.

Willow 34:54

Yes. We wanna

Leah 34:55

Yes. We're so curious. 24 hours with you. What's it like?

Willow 35:00

Start

Devah 35:00

both so

Willow 35:02

We are. We are fun. You are too. we would've a lot of fun if we had a 24 hour experience. I'm sure about that.

Leah 35:10

my

Devah 35:11

well, if we share that 24 experience and if Mary Jo decides to have that 24 hour experience, this is what it would look like.

Willow 35:16

right. Okay.

Devah 35:18

So I usually recommend that we come together very early at the start of the day, the the for the main day that we're gonna spend together. And the reason for that is. If we're gonna move into an emotional experience and we're going to be moving through ways of different sensations and emotions, it's nice to be energized and it's, but we, we have more energy in the earlier part of the day, usually than late at night. So I try and start early in the day. We'll come together, we'll sit down and we'll have a little cup of herbal tea on a sofa or something like that. And the reason I do that is because all throughout our lives, for most people,

Establishing Boundaries in Intimate Sessions

Devah 37:42

we've associated having a hot cup of something sitting down on the sofa as relaxation time.

Willow 37:48

Mm-hmm.

Devah 37:49

it's really deeply ingrained in our subconscious mind and in our nervous system, herbal tea, sitting on the couch, let's relax together. And it encourages relaxation. I'll have them kind of share anything that's happening in their mind so that they can get it out of their minds and into their bodies. I encourage them throughout that time as well if anything arises during our time together, they're welcome to ask for a pause. They're welcome to ask for a breather if they need me to go for a walk and just leave the space so that they can be alone for a moment they're welcome to ask for that. Just whatever they need to create safety and relaxation in their nervous system. I encourage them to ask that. And of course, there's the our B-D-S-M-A conversation where we can talk about boundaries and consent and make sure that, um, even though we've spoken about something on a call previously, you know, all of our lives are so dynamic, something kind of rise the morning of a session that a person just had no way to predict. And it can shift their readiness and their willingness and what they're, uh, they feel they have the capacity to step into in a session. So we just do a little check in once again to make sure that they're feeling aligned and everything is okay. And when it comes to boundaries, um, whatever boundaries they communicate are respected. And I also just let them know beforehand that if they have a boundary that we can't down regulate it during an experience. So if they say, you know, they don't want to be touched on their breasts, let's say, and then we have the experience together and they're like, oh, I'm feeling so relaxed this is great. Actually being touched on the breast is okay. That's, that's not acceptable. Whatever boundary is created at the very beginning when they're feeling sovereign and in their nerves. Exactly. They can upregulate a boundary if they want. They can say, actually I'd rather not get touched here as well. That's

Leah 39:30

okay? Mm-hmm.

Devah 39:32

But to

Leah 39:32

They can add boundaries, but they can't change a boundary that they've already established.

Devah 39:38

Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. So we just establish all that in the conversation at the start, and then we just move straight into the practices whenever they're ready. Sorry, were you gonna say something?

Willow 39:47

uh, well, I'm curious about, um. What you notice, uh, between male individuals or female individuals as far as boundaries go? Do women tend to have more, um, boundaries around, you know, how, how far they'll go, what they're willing to, to explore and play with? Or is it pretty equal? Uh, 'cause you know, when I'm working with men versus women, you know, I'm having to hold more boundaries. 'cause men will just, they just wanna go,

Leah 40:23

Yeah. The typical answer when we're working with men is, I don't got any boundaries.

Willow 40:28

Yeah. That's right.

Leah 40:28

I'm good. You know, and then we actually have to teach them, okay, well let's, let's actually, let's stay right there for a minute. Let's really explore like what boundaries might mean and whether it's this situation or other situations. You know what I mean? So, yeah, that's an interesting question willow. Do you find that men respond to you the same way? They tend to respond to us in our first sessions with them?

Devah 40:51

Um, I'm very thorough in my intake process, I feel, and there have, there have been one, there's been once or twice that a man has tried to be more forward with their energy and kind of direct where things were going to go. Um, and also I found, you know, just a reminder that that's not what this is. And bringing it back into their intentions that they had for the session and rem rem reminding them what they came here to achieve. Because, because men can go out into the world and, you know, there's, there's plenty of ways to meet people and have sex.

Willow 41:30

Right.

Devah 41:30

can do that, you can do that anywhere. So why would you want to spend time with someone that you're paying in order to have a healing journey and then do the same thing that you've done every single other time for the rest of your life?

Leah 41:39

right,

Devah 41:40

So, yeah, so it's exactly, so it's just calling people back into that awareness and then taking some deep breaths together and bringing it back into being centered and remembering where we are, what the intentions are, and then it tends to, to slide back into sort of the more regulated and healing journey that we, we are planning, you know?

Leah 42:00

Okay.

Willow 42:01

Yeah. I wanna ask, um, a question that sort of shifts away from what we've been talking about, um, with like the session work and what that looks like. More talking about, uh, you know, the, the collective wounded feminine, right? It's like we, we often will say on here, you know, even if you haven't had some kind of overt sexual trauma, sexuality has been traumatized, you know, in the, in the collective

Healing the Collective Wounded Feminine

Willow 42:28

for, for centuries. And so how do we shift, um, centuries of conditioning around how yoni owners or vulva owners have been treated? And how do we, you know, help them find their way to safety and exploration? Because when. A vulva owner is in a really expanded, open, exploratory state. She feels so alive. It is so good for her health on every single level. Her hormones, her sleep, her digestion, her immune system, her psychological confidence, like everything shifts and changes when she kind of crosses over that threshold I could get hurt, I could get pregnant, I could, this is bad. You know, the shame and the guilt and the collective, all that's been that we all grew up with, you know, coming from Catholic backgrounds. do we shift it?

Devah 43:27

And again, I feel that touch physical intimacy and sexuality is the very, very end of that equation. Yeah. And we can use, uh, we can use sacred intimacy and we can use Tantric practices to also, you know, move into healing quickly. But in the general population of the world, I feel the starting point of that is helping women understand that they're not too much, just because they feel emotions, that they're not crazy just because they have a voice. All of these things, these programs of the patriarchy that have just disempowered women, that they're less capable than men. All of these things, women are so wise, they can hold so much. They're so brave and courageous. If you think about all of everything that women have been through, if you just look at the last few centuries of everything that women have been through and that's been going on for millennia, I'd say at this point we don't really know when it started. You know? And just getting down to the root of that, listening to women, getting curious about what their experience is, why they're saying the things that they're saying. Not just discounting them because you think something different. And um, yeah. And, you know, asking their opinion when a decision, an important decision has to be made to, to give them a voice and to draw on their wisdom and their experience. A woman who is 30 has been on the earth just as long as a man who's 30. They've just as much wisdom and experience, maybe even more 'cause they've had to put up all the being disregarded and all of the strength building and emotional regulation that came along with just feeling the injustice of life as it's known on, on earth at the moment for women. So, you know, their voices are just so valuable and I feel like, yeah, it's steps like that are more important. First is creating, lifting women up so that they're standing equally beside us. Respecting their wisdom, respecting their voice, respecting their strength, respecting the sacrifice that women as mothers make every single day.

Leah 45:35

Mm-hmm.

Devah 45:35

Women, it just blow my mind, the strength of women. And when I go to a country as well, to say in Asia where chauvinism is even stronger, and to witness the strength of the women of those countries and everything that they put up with. And they're such strong women and they're the ones who lift all of the heavy things there. They're the ones who do all the work in the farms. It's like mind blowing, just the strength of women every day are amazed by so start, that's the starting point,

Leah 46:04

Yeah,

Devah 46:04

not starting with sex. Starting with respect. Respect and being seen and heard and held and present with women so that they can feel safe and have a desire to open rather than feel like you're just gonna disrespect them and then try and take something from them, you know?

Willow 46:20

Hallelujah.

Leah 46:21

Yeah, no, I'm

Willow 46:22

a lot of phone calls

Leah 46:23

I'm gonna say, I'm

Willow 46:24

airs.

Leah 46:25

drop across the

Willow 46:26

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Devah 46:28

Uh, I hope so.

Leah 46:29

like pay attention to the depth and the emotion that you're hearing from Devah, and like the honest, authentic resonance of like, clearly a man who really respects the minds, the hearts, and the journeys of the feminine. Like that opens a woman's system. And you can tell this is, you're in the presence of a man who spends time listening, and that has a deep effect. It's why I can hear panties dropping across the globe like, like this is, this is the fodder that opens up a woman's ability to be devotional and to open her sex center and to be able to like drop God into her yoni and share it with you. It's, it's kind of like the beginning of how the portal opens. Um, that being said, I can also imagine if you're watching this on YouTube and you're lady and you've just heard what you just said so beautifully, and you're also such a charming, delicious Irish chap who is gorgeous to look at with a beautiful deep voice. Like how many times do your clients fall in love with you and how do you manage their emotional attachments to someone who's seen them maybe for the first time in their life. Who's bringing them pleasure and catharsis maybe for the first time in their life from issues that are generational?

Managing Emotional Attachments in Healing Sessions

Leah 47:51

I mean, that's a lot of holding and it's very easy for people to go into transference around, um, someone showing them something inside themselves for the first time.

Devah 48:01

Mm-hmm. Yeah, this might feel a little bit edgy. Uh, it feels edgy to say it on a podcast, but honestly, love is a part of the medicine that I offer.

Leah 48:11

Yeah,

Devah 48:12

Yeah. it's an integral part of the experience. I, I feel. And showing up in complete loving acceptance is basically the medicine of what I offer. And within that space of loving acceptance, people heal themselves.

Leah 48:29

Mm-hmm.

Willow 48:30

Ding, ding, ding. Yeah,

Devah 48:32

Everyone is their own healer. So I show up in full love, full openhearted acceptance of the person in front of me when I'm in session with them. And that inspires love in the other person. And that's okay. It's okay to feel love. It's okay to feel acceptance. It's okay to understand that you can have this experience with another person. And also, you know, there are, uh, when people, if it doesn't happen, honestly very often it's happened to me. I think maybe only once, I feel like maybe twice. But I can only really remember one example when someone expressed that they wanted to, to deepen in, in a relationship. And from, from that moment, it's, it's a celebration. You know, remember when you came to me and you felt like you were so unlovable and so, or whatever, that might not be their experience, sorry, but whatever. They came to me with their experience of whatever they, they were trying to work through and now they're in this

Willow 49:29

get in a relationship again or

Leah 49:31

Right,

Willow 49:31

that. Now they're like, I wanna be in a relationship with you. And you're like, whoa, celebrate that.

Devah 49:36

did it. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. This is what you came here to do. I'm gonna be out here doing this with lots and lots of other people. So maybe the idea of a relationship with me isn't what you're imagining, but you know, this, this, this, is the gift. This is what you came here for. You've received it. And now you can go out into the world with that, knowing that this is possible, with that, knowing that you can feel this good in your body and you can try and find someone out there who you can share that experience with, you know, so.

Leah 50:03

uh,

Willow 50:05

go ahead. Well, I was gonna say, do you teach women how to guide partners. 'cause let's say a woman does, Mary Jo does come and she's like, okay, I went through that gnarly relationship with divorce, but I, I'm open, I'm ready. I wanna

Leah 50:20

I just met Steve. I'm so excited.

Devah 50:23

Mm-hmm.

Willow 50:23

well not Steve quite yet. He, just had devah right? And so she's like, now she's open to Devah and she da. Right. But how, how would you then like transition Mary Jo to be like, you know what, there's a Steve out there for you and you're gonna teach him how to love you because you know how to love yourself better now.

Devah 50:44

So I never really, uh, tell people that they're going to be able to teach someone

Willow 50:53

Okay.

Devah 50:53

X, Y, Z. I have a very strong feeling that people only learn when they want to be taught. I don't know if that's the be all and end all truth of it,

Willow 51:03

Hmm.

Devah 51:05

you know, I'm, I think a lot of people in their lives have had experiences of trying to change someone or trying to teach someone or trying to x, y, z someone when it wasn't invited or asked. And it hasn't really worked

Willow 51:17

It doesn't work. That never works.

Devah 51:19

Exactly. So if Mary Jo's Patrick I think was, comes and, and that he wants to learn from me and he's desiring, I'm in. I can teach whatever, whatever you wanna know exactly. And, but what I can teach Mary Jo is healthy boundaries. Self-respect, self-worth, like if it feels this good to be me, if I can show up feeling so embodied and so confident, and I can learn how to communicate with someone I want to feel this way. This is what I'm available for, this is what I'm not available for. Does that feel good to you? You know, just we can teach those communication patterns as we're interacting with each other throughout the session, just through asking someone a certain way and then they can think, whoa, I never even considered asking someone that before. You know? So we can teach those language patterns, we can teach that. We can offer that experience of being fully loved and accepted, and hopefully the other person can experience what it is to be fully embodied and so joyful in their body. And then once that experience has been attained, hopefully there's a desire on that person's own, uh, of their own free will that they want to maintain that sense of wellbeing, that sense of joy. And then they'll choose, they'll choose a person that will respect them and honor them and be willing to step into that journey with them. That's, that would be the hope, I think more so than. able to, you know, teach someone through the other person the the way kind of thing, you know? Yeah. Find someone who is willing to learn, who's willing to grow with you. Go on the journey together and step into that beautiful journey of sacred sexuality together. Holding each other and healing together, you know?

Willow 52:57

Yeah, exactly. I want to hit one more point before we wrap up, which is, um. You and I one-on-one, just personally have talked about, um, how to use existential kink work. That that book, um,

Existential Kink and Healing Practices

Willow 53:15

Carolyn Elliott's book, existential Kink. If y'all haven't read it, do not pass. Go, go get it and read it. Um, and David and I, he was really kind of supporting me in helping me along my own journey in doing this work for, um, just a couple of conversations and, and brought forth like use existential kink to shift any limiting beliefs or, um, resistances that you have to what you can create. So just wanna bring that into the conversation before we

Devah 53:48

Before, before we move on to this, I just wanna say, because we didn't get through to the session with Mary Jo, so if anyone wants to find out more, you can go to www.DivinityEmpowered.Love, and all of the offerings up there, that's where you'll find what would've happened with Mary Jo along the way.

Leah 54:00

Yeah. Like if you're Mary Jo out there, or maybe you're Cameron, or maybe you're, you know, um, Suzy Q and you might be coming not with Mary Jo's problems. Like that was just one archetype. Right? Like, what about someone who's, when I don't wanna go take us too far, because I am very curious about your answer about what this conversation was between the two of you about existential kink. Um. But I know that the range of sexual healing is wide and deep. And we just gave you one example, but there's people who are struggling with erections and there's people who are struggling with performance, and there's people who are feeling, um, self-conscious about their body. I mean, there's so many, there's people who've been sexually abused or have been assaulted that all fall under the umbrella of healing, including having a really great childhood, and you still need some healing. You know, it's like you can't compare one person's trauma to another person's trauma. So, is there anything else you wanna say before we move on to existential kink regarding your work as a sexual healer, which may, you know, maybe you'll add that to the existential kink answer.

Devah 55:10

Um, I feel, you know, we could go on for another hour

Leah 55:15

Yeah. Yeah.

Devah 55:16

I don't even know where to start. But let's, we'll dive into existential kink because what existential kink is gonna do is actually give people an exercise that they can do at home, something that they can do it themselves. So it's empowering the audience rather than saying you have to work with someone else. So just to give an exercise to the, to the viewers and to the listeners. Um, so. You know, there's a lot of spiritual practices that say, oh, love the pain, love everything that's happening inside your body. And love is one energy that we can use to heal and transmute experiences with inside our body, inside our body. But sexual energy, as we spoke about earlier when we were talking about that flood of oxytocin, serotonin, and dopamine, sexual energy and sexual experience is also something that we can use to heal wounds within our body. So let's just say, let's take scarcity as an example, okay? Because it's so not sexual. It's to do with money. You know, I don't have enough money to pay the bills. I don't have enough money for X, Y, Z. So just say you're experiencing worry about money and you're experience that every single day, every day you wake up and you think, oh God, I'm so worried about money. And when you look back at your life, you realize, well. I've always had a roof over my head, potentially, like I've had, I've been able to feed myself maybe only one meal a day, maybe only a sweet potato a day. But I've always had food. So, and if you look back at your life, it's very rare that you've actually, or potentially it's been very rare that you've had absolutely nothing. So it's that idea of, okay, well if, if it's never really happened that I've completely been down and out and on the street, why do I constantly, every single day continue to worry about this? cause worrying is basically, when you think about it, praying for the worst outcome to happen. We can, we can easily, we can easily think about the positive outcome and thinking about the negative outcome. Why would we choose to think about the negative outcome? So there must be some attachment somewhere within each of us,

Leah 57:06

Say that again. You're praying for your worrying is praying for it to happen. Is that what you said?

Devah 57:11

Worrying is praying for the worst possible outcome. Another way people pray and they

Leah 57:16

yeah. That should be a bumper sticker.

Devah 57:17

me, when it's on repeat in your mind, you're basically just saying the prayer again and again, and again and again, and creating worry and creating stress. Right? So, but if we're doing that every single day, if we're choosing that, we would think we're not choosing it. But if we're choosing that every single day, because it is what's happening every single day, obviously somewhere, somewhere in our beings, we get a kick outta it. That's, that's that, that's, that's the premise of existential kink basically, is if we want to create this situation for ourself day in, day out, we must absolutely love it, because it's

Leah 57:57

We must be getting off on it.

Devah 57:58

Exactly.

Willow 57:59

Love not having enough money. Love only eating

Leah 58:02

it. Love being broke.

Willow 58:04

I

Devah 58:04

Exactly.

Willow 58:06

yeah.

Leah 58:06

I just love being hungry.

Devah 58:08

And the thing about it is, right, if we're, if, uh, uh, you, you both have experience with kink, I'm, I'm sure Do you In the kink world. Okay. Yeah.

Leah 58:16

Yeah. Kink for everybody. That's how we

Devah 58:18

yeah. Yes. So if kink is, if, if we look at that in a kinky context, right? Just say someone is spanking us or, you know, domming us or whatever it looks like for you, whatever your, your flavor of kin that you enjoy is, there's an experience of, oh yes, I love this, but there's also kind of an uncomfortable, oh, that's sore. Oh god, I don't wanna surrender. So we're, we're basically reframing this experience of the challenging sensation or emotions that arise through scarcity as the universe domming us. And so we're, we're pretending that the universe is doing the thing that we want. We're imagine that the universe is doing the thing that we want, but the uncomfortable feeling that we're having, like that scarcity. I think maybe the anxiety from scarcity or the restriction that we're feeling from scarcity is that little element of the experience that's uncomfortable.

Leah 59:11

Right. It's the resistance to the spanking. Even though the spanking's gonna make us wet, we, we still don't wanna feel the sting, so we're obsessing over the sting instead of dropping into how wet we are.

Devah 59:23

Exactly. Exactly. So we just, so we just imagine that the universe is doming us and making love to us. You're doing whatever fucking you. If that's, if that's what turns you on, like just whatever way you enjoy having, being, being made love to or being penetrated, you're imagining that's happening. The universe is doing that to you. And the dis, the uncomfortable feeling that you're having is the, that pleasurable resistance thing that happens in kink. So you're like, oh yeah, okay. More, more. And you start to breathe into it and just ask the universe for more and really love and accept it as if, as if they're having sex. The universe is having sex with you and then you breathe that sexual activation because it can actually lead to getting turned on. Actually, that's, that's what I've found. That's what most people that I've shared this with have found. So it leads to getting turned on and you just start to breathe that turn on around your body. The, I dunno, you're both familiar with the microcosmic orbit, I'm sure. Yeah. Have we, the viewers know what the microcosmic orbit is? Have we ever spoken about that before?

Leah 1:00:20

Probably many listening. Do not, I would, my guess would be that it's not like we've taught, taught it formally on the podcast.

Willow 1:00:26

but we talk about it, but you can explain it.

Devah 1:00:29

so to put it simply, everyone, whenever there's a buildup of sexual charge down in your, your genitals, your lingham, or your yoni, you basically do a little clench as if you're stopping yourself from peeing or a Kegel. Some people know the term Kegel, and you inhale and with your internal eye, your imagination, you just watch from between your legs all the way up to the crown of your head coming up the spine. So you're kind of trying to draw energy basically, or arousal up the spine and up towards the crown of the head. So that's on the inhale Kegel. And then as you exhale, you just make sure that your tongue is touching the roof of your mouth and you let that arousal energy waterfall down the front of your body all the way down to between your legs again, and then inhale.

Leah 1:01:18

Can you complete the circuit?

Devah 1:01:20

Mm-hmm. And then as you exhale, you can sigh as well, and you let the energy fall down the front of your body and you basically circulate that arousal energy with that. You think about the scarcity and you, you let that, those emotions come to the surface, like the anxiety, the uncomfortable sensation, and you circulate your arousal around your body and you'll find, or what most people find, I can't tell you what your experience is going to be. What most people find is that that energy of arousal, oh, that energy of arousal will actually start to cancel out the discomfort or the challenging sensation that you've been having. And you know, it might not do it forever. It might just do it for an hour. It might

Leah 1:01:57

you might just get a reprieve. Right? Right. So what you're saying is you are, you're doing a big upward draw of the arousal and you're keeping at the forefront of your attention. The, the discomfort. The discomfort, easy for me to say, the uncomfortable sensation of I'm broke. I am

Devah 1:02:18

whatever that, whatever emotion.

Leah 1:02:20

Yeah. Whatever the suffering is you hold, you, you, you, you draw up the arousal, you're aware of the suffering and you bring them together or you're using the arousal to dissipate the suffering

Devah 1:02:33

So, one important point, thank you for, for asking that Leah. 'cause it brought another important point to my mind. We're not focusing on the words. I have no money. I have no money. We're not focusing on the story. We're focusing on the sensation felt in the body that arises whenever we tell ourselves the story. Okay.

Leah 1:02:48

Okay. Good

Devah 1:02:49

So. So if we say, I have no money, and then we feel the contraction and the anxiety, that's what we're focusing on. And we're only using the story whenever we want to bring that emotion and that sensation to the surface. And then just naturally as we, as we start to imagine ourselves getting domed by the universe and the arousal starts to come in. And if you want, you can actually do this during a self pleasure practice as well. It's even more effective if you do it during self-pleasure. 'cause obviously there's that more sexual charge generated. Exactly. So just by the, by the practice of doing the microcosmic orbit. You don't need to focus on it trying to catch the uncomfortable sensations. It just catches it, it just starts to carry it. As you're moving the energy around your body, it will just start to catch on and neutralize those, uh, uh, the discomfort that you've been experiencing. And eventually it should fully dissipate into just a feeling of bliss and expansion, which we would call subspace or down space whenever we're in the kink world. So, and that's, that's the healing.

Leah 1:03:47

Great.

Devah 1:03:47

by, by changing our relationship to these. Yeah. Thank you, Carolyn. So, by changing our relationship to these negative experiences.

Willow 1:03:57

Dao is,

Leah 1:03:58

Yeah.

Devah 1:03:59

But by, by changing our relationship to those, uh, to those negative experiences, we're telling the subconscious mind, oh, this is great. And we're changing that relationship that we may have had that has been creating it every day. And then it's not needed as much. It stops arising as much. And not only does it change that loop that we can get caught in, in our minds, it also changes how money shows up in our life. 'cause our relationship to money changes. And for me personally and for other people that I've shared with wis, with this, with, uh, it has led to a huge change in how money shows up in our lives. So, super, super powerful practice for me. Specifically around scarcity. Sorry, go ahead.

Willow 1:04:40

You can do it with anything. Like if you're having scarcity around, I can't find the love that I want. I can't find the sex that I want, I can't get the money that I want,

Devah 1:04:48

Mm-hmm.

Willow 1:04:49

the, whatever, the weight off my bot, whatever your thing that you're stuck on the loop and the cycle in, you know, you can really do this practice. And the microcosmic orbit comes from the Taoist tradition. And the reason that it is so effective is 'cause it's, it's activating the, the y, the most yang or the most masculine channel in your body, which runs up your spine, and then it's connecting it to the most feminine or yin channel, which runs down through the front of your body. So you're really, actually working with real meridians in your body that have been, you know, recognized by Chinese medicine for over 5,000 years. So you're activating these, these masculine and feminine poles within that, um, bring harmony and balance to your nervous system when they are in balance. But when we're always stuck in anxiety and worry and lack and scarcity and not enoughness, you know, our, our yang channel is so tight, you know, and we all have neck pain and back pain and knee pain. And it is because we're, we're trying to protect ourselves from the scarcity that we're creating in our own minds. So it's really, um, such a powerful practice that you're, you're explaining right now deva in so many ways and so many deep layers in so many ways.

Devah 1:06:10

I just wanna give credit to Carolyn for that though. It's basically, Carolyn wrote a book that outlined that concept in many different exercises and in many different ways, and that was my main takeaway from it, and that's how I sort of share that wisdom with

Willow 1:06:23

She never talked

Devah 1:06:24

her for the context.

Willow 1:06:26

it is her, her book is incredible. I've read it multiple times, but she never, um, she never talked about running the microcosmic orbit with it, did she? In the book? Not that I remember or recall. I think that's your

Devah 1:06:39

been, it's been a long time. Maybe if it is good Coco co co co-creation. Caroline. Thank you.

Leah 1:06:46

Yeah.

Willow 1:06:46

a co-creation,

Devah 1:06:48

Yeah. But that's one of the key elements to me for sure.

Willow 1:06:51

Yeah.

Leah 1:06:52

Well, Devah, um, thank you so much for being on the show. Uh, tell us again how people can find you.

Devah 1:06:59

divinity empowered on all of the platforms, but I'm most active. I don't really do social media that much, but I think Instagram is probably my most active social media channel. And, um, if they go to Divinity Empowered Love. Then they'll be able to find my website. And I'm also over on Sacred Eros as well. Uh, sacred Eros is a, a really, it's, it's been around for 25 years and it's a vetted directory for sacred intimate workers, which is a great resource for anyone out there who's hoping to dive into sacred, intimate work. So they can also find me over on Sacred Eros.

Leah 1:07:31

you'll see me, Dr. Willow, and David, all on Sacred Arrows and including a lot of other great practitioners.

Willow 1:07:38

so

Devah 1:07:38

Mm-hmm. Thank you.

Willow 1:07:40

Yeah.

Leah 1:07:42

yeah. Thank you so much for being on the show, and um, y'all don't you worry the show's not over. You gotta stay tuned because what's up next is the Dish with Willow and I so love, love, love.

Willow 1:07:54

Thank you, David.

Devah 1:07:55

you, so much. Yeah. Thank you. Willow. Thank you. Leo was honored to be here with you both. Thank you. Thank you.

1:08:03

Now our favorite part, the dish.

Leah 1:08:06

Well, that was so refreshing, so lovely to speak to a man about sexual healing and he is just doing such beautiful work. And I mean, did you not just have like a total crush when he's talking about like the strength of women and how much he respects them and how hard they work and all the

The Dish with Leah & Dr. Willow

Leah 1:08:22

things that they accomplish? I mean, I just was like, oh, swoon. Oh

Willow 1:08:26

Yeah. I love Dave. He's great. He is a great, he is a great friend and advocate in this field. And coming from a a m male perspective and a, a masculine, you know, experience, it's just nice to have somebody to just be like, what's going on? What's your experience with this or that? Um, so that's why I wanted to have him on the show just 'cause I think also, you know, his work with, with. Like his, his pan, what do you call it? Pan

Leah 1:08:57

Pansexual.

Willow 1:08:58

pan pansexual. I, that's what I'm claiming too. If I'm claiming any, anything. It's like he really just does fall in love with the soul that he's with, you know? And he is not afraid to love and he is not afraid to, um, be open and be, you know, and just to fully, fully be, be present and be there. And I think that is the healing that everyone is really looking for. Um, when they start seeking in this sacred sexual path, they're looking for that deep presence and being seen.

Leah 1:09:29

Yeah, if I had had more time, I would've loved to have given him another character, and the character would've been a man, um, with a

Willow 1:09:37

to have him back. Do another one.

Leah 1:09:39

to have like a more sexual agenda and wanted to know like, okay, how do you work with that? So, yeah, future episode.

Willow 1:09:45

Yeah, for sure. Yeah, let us know what you all thought about the interview with da and um, if you have any questions for him, we can ask him the next time we have him back.

Leah 1:09:56

Yes, uh, you can always reach us at support@sexreimagined.com with your questions and also your suggestions for other guests, other sex experts. We would love to know what do you wanna learn on the Sex Reimagined podcast? Um, and let us feature the topics you're most curious about. Okay, you guys have an awesome day. Love, love, love.

Announcer 1:10:18

Thanks for tuning in. This episode was hosted by Tantric Sex Master Coach and positive psychology facilitator, Leah Piper, as well as by Chinese and Functional Medicine doctor and Taoist Taxology teacher, Dr. Willow Brown. Don't forget your comments, like subscribes and suggestions matter. Let's realize this new world together.