The Sex Reimagined Podcast

Dr. Diane Mueller: How To Talk About Your Wildest Fantasies Without Destroying Your Marriage | #153

• Leah Piper and Dr. Willow Brown • Season 3 • Episode 153

Share episode

Send us a text & leave your email address if you want a reply!

If your partner feels more like a roommate than a lover, you're not alone. Most couples accept that passion naturally fades over time. But certified sexologist and naturopathic doctor, Dr. Diane Mueller reveals why this belief is not only false—it's actively sabotaging your intimacy. In this marriage saving episode, discover how sexual desire in marriage can actually improve with time when you understand the hidden science behind attraction.


EPISODE HIGHLIGHTS

  • The Practice Principle: Like learning an instrument, sexuality should improve with practice—but only if you keep adding new elements
  • Dopamine Strategy: Plan intimate experiences in advance to recreate the anticipation that drives new relationship energy
  • Safety First: Learn to distinguish between "this is hard" resistance vs. "I'm not ready" resistance using body awareness
  • Embrace Awkwardness: Dr. Mueller and her partner literally banged heads during sex recently—awkward moments are normal and can be playful
  • Holistic Approach: Perfect hormones don't automatically restore desire; you need to address physical, emotional, and communication factors together


Links & Resources Mentioned In The Episode (Including Video & Audio Versions Of The The Episode) Can Be Found On The Website Here


AWAKENING THE GODDESS IN CRETE! Leah & Willow want to take you on an all-woman's tantric pilgrimage to Greece Oct 5-12, 2025! Join us for a trip of lifetime. 

THE VAGINAL ORGASM MASTERCLASS. Discover how to activate the female Gspot, clitoris, & cervical orgasms. Save 20% Coupon: PODCAST 20

LAST 10x LONGER. If you suffer from premature ejaculation, you are not alone, master 5 techniques to cure this stressful & embarrassing issue once and for all. Save 20% Coupon: PODCAST20. 

Support the show

Announcer:

Welcome to the Sex Reimagined Podcast, where sex is shame-free and pleasure forward. Let's get into the show.

Willow:

Hello everyone and welcome to the Sex Reimagined podcast. I'm Dr. Willow Brown. I'm here with the one and only Leah Piper. We are your co-host. We are so grateful for all your wonderful likes, shares, and subscribes. Now, today we have a little question for you. If your partner feels more like a roommate than a lover, than you are not alone, and today's guest says the real reason passion fades has nothing to do with attraction and everything to do with biology, miscommunication, and a few sneaky saboteurs no one is talking about. So we're so excited to welcome Dr. Diane Mueller aboard certified sexologist with dual doctorates in naturopathic as well as acupuncture and oriental medicine. So I'm so excited about this conversation, and she is the founder of sex Education Center and she is my libido do.com and hosts the Libido Lounge podcast, which we were guests on. And she really loves to help monogamous couples create more passion, desire, hotter sex, and better communication. So we are thrilled to have you with us today, Diane. Welcome.

Diane:

Thank you. It's so good to be with you ladies again. And you know, if I can real quickly, just open this up with a quick story on top of your amazing intro, one of the things that first started waking me up to this topic we're talking about today around sex actually getting better in long-term relationships instead of worse was when I was listening to a lecture with the co-founder of NLP Neurolinguistic Programming Richard Bandler. And he was telling a story of when he was getting ready to get married and people were like, well, you better have a lot of sex now because it's gonna go away later. Like the sex is gonna go down, down, down, down, down. And his response to this that he was teaching just really awakened something in me and his response was, okay, so anything else in life that we do we learn a new instrument and we practice, practice, practice, practice, practice. We get better. We learn a new language. We practice, practice, practice, practice, practice. We get better. So. He's like, so sex is this one thing that you practice and get worse at? And so it didn't make any sense to him and it didn't make any sense to me. And that was a huge launch, that kind of concept for a lot of the work I do today.

Willow:

love that it is such a good story and it's so true. It's like practicing sexuality is a practice. It's a practice of getting to know yourself in newer and more intriguing ways day by day and getting to know your partner.

Diane:

Yeah,

Leah:

the first thing that comes to mind when I hear you say that is, yes, but what is the neurological differences between someone practicing an instrument versus someone having sex where we've got lots of different brain chemistry being generated in relationship to sex, and I'm curious, like, is that different when you're practicing or are passionate about something like learning to practice an instrument or maybe for me would be cooking. Um, anyone, any, any of the doctors in the room know the answer to that question.

Diane:

Well, I, I've been asked this before, so the way I describe the answer to this is like, think about learning guitar and learning the G chord and the way you practice guitar is not practicing the G chord. Over and over and over and over again. You add a C, you add a D, you add an A minor and you keep adding new things and that's how you get better at guitar. So the difference is that when we are often practicing sex, we're making love that oftentimes because if left to our own devices, what we wind up doing is we get into a sexual script and we just practice the G chord. Over and over and over again. And if we did that with guitar, well, we would get really good at the G chord, but we would not be a great guitar player.

Leah:

And we get bored. Yes. Which is probably some

Willow:

would get bored listening to us.

Leah:

right? Uh, in long-term relationship sex. As you get into that routine and you get bored. Great answer by the way. Really love

Willow:

that's a good one. It's a great metaphor. Yeah. Yeah. We love the metaphor of, of learning to play an instrument is, is so synonymous to sexuality because it, you know, it does become an orchestra and, and a mu a really well fine tuned musician who knows how to play multiple instruments, like the music moves through them, rather than them playing the instruments, the instruments are playing through them. The same thing in sexuality, especially with Tantric, spiritually connected sex. It's like the, the energy of the sexuality starts to move you and play through you rather than you doing it. It starts out as you doing it, but then you get into this trance state where it takes over.

Diane:

Yeah.

Leah:

correlation you made there, Willow. Um, because it is interesting when people are learning sexual techniques and conscious sexuality and things like Taoist practices and Tantra practices where you become skillful as a lover. It's like that learning process of practicing and learning new skill sets, and then finding the embodied knowledge to allow that practice to be so internalized that it's no longer a skill or a technique you're doing, it's a way that you express yourself. And, um, but there is always sort of that learning curve of playing a guitar or learning a new sexual technique. Let's, let's say G-spot massage or uh, prostate massage, where you're a little clutsy at first. You, you don't have the rhythm. You, you don't know how to find the beat until you practice enough where it's like, oh, I know how to tap this. I know how to take someone on a ride when it comes to their, their pleasure and how they're opening and what they're feeling, and so on and so forth. So, I'm curious, Diane, I'm, I know that you, um An acupuncturist and you've got this holistic practice. Where are, where does this interfacing with couples start from? Or is it more therapeutic in nature? Are you teaching them skills in the bedroom so that they're better at sex? What's your, like, what's the first door you're opening for folks?

Diane:

It's a great question and it's, it's a challenging one, right?'cause a lot of my work is really combining, like the medical, the science, the lab stuff with all the sexy stuff. So I find that like, like in the programs, in my courses. I do give people access to a lot of things typically at once. And so we do go through and say, well, are there hormone imbalances? Do you have sympathetic dominance, which most humans do? Or is your, is your overwhelm running your life? Do you have neurological issues or pelvic floor dysfunctions? Like those kind of like physical things. Which have to be addressed. And at the same time, the number of times people have reregulated their hormones and they're hormonally perfect, but their libido is low, they're still not like, you know, their desires down. It's too many to count. So we know that those things are helpful and important to be in line, but. The way we bring novelty in the way we actually communicate with our partner, the way we set time aside for our pleasure practice. All of these things actually make a big difference with the arousal and the libido. So in my work, a lot of what I do is give people access to all these areas. And I often find that the place to start is the place that people feel most called to. So if you tend to be more of like, wow, you've loved the science and all that, like, like everybody should look at the medical side of things.'cause it can be Im, you know, impactful. But if your brain works in more that analytical way, you might be better like, like starting there just to kind of get some movement and then adding on these other areas and other people that maybe are more like they, they feel the energy, right? And they just wanna, they're so much more interested in actually the embodiment side of things. They might do better starting over in this other area to practice that. I find that it's just like this very, like beautiful meld of, of, energy, like flowing in different ways and meaning there's not like one fundamental thing I've seen with arousal and and libido where it's like you have to do this first or it doesn't work.

Willow:

Yeah. I love that you're girl after my own heart here. Love, love, love. It's so, it's so all inclusive, you know, it's. Like, and we just jump in as we learn. In Chinese medicine, it's like it's a big circle and you just jump into the center of it and you start pac manning your way out from there, you start taking nibbles here and there, and you digest what you can, and you assimilate what you can in the moment, and then when you're ready for the next piece, you move on to the next piece. And every human being is so different. I always think of humans as these four pillars. Spiritual, emotional, psychological, and physical. And so if you're really down in the dumps with your physicality and your fucking hormones are driving you absolutely cuckoo sauce, then yeah, you're gonna wanna start there. But if you're like, eh, I have a little bit of brain fog and I get some night sweats, but hey, I've got some sexual repressed trauma that I haven't dealt with and I know that, then yeah, you're gonna wanna dive into that psychological, um, spiritual component first.

Leah:

I, I think it's interesting too because it makes sense that people are gonna wanna start where they feel their strengths. So if they love sort of the physiological, neurological science of things, that's where they feel safe and comfortable. They get to kind of feel that they're where they're comfortable, they're in their comfort zone first. And then you can kind of take a look at, okay, now let's see where I need to be challenged. And I'm sure when you're working with couples, right, you've got two different people who, um, have their own comfort zones and who might hopefully nudge their partner to get out of their comfort zone. You know, it's interesting. Matt and I have been interviewing some therapists. We've been together for 10 years, married for eight as of this recording and um, and we're like, yeah, we need a tuneup. You know, we started our relationship seeing a therapist because we were doing awesome and we had the idea like, we people should go to therapy, like when they're doing great'cause it's when they're challenged that um, it's a little bit harder to learn skills, so it's been interesting. We're like, yeah, it's time for our tuneup. And taking a look and being really honest, like, oh, I feel really uncomfortable here. This is where like, I know I need to be pushed a little bit. Um, where are your clients and patients? Where's their resistance? You know, where, where do you find people most resistant to taking the next leap?

Diane:

Oh, it's all, it's a great question, and honestly the answer is all over the board. You know, it's, it's Everywhere. It's like, you know, like what you're saying, Dr. Willow around like Chinese medicine, like I look at it as like following the qi, right? That's what we say in Chinese medicine is like you just, you pay attention to the qi and, and so it's the energy and I think. You know, to your point Leah, around like safety and resistance, I think one of the biggest things for people is understanding that hey, like, like beginning to differentiate, Hey, this is resistance because maybe I'm not ready to go here, versus like, this is resistance because this is hard. And to, you know, to determine that next step. And I do think it's helpful to do this work as a couple because like you said, couples come into this at different spots and different places and oftentimes have different, you know, strengths versus, you know, challenge and growth areas. So we can kind of support each other and help each other. And I think one of the biggest things in like doing any of the work is starting in many ways, if something is challenging, then coming back to the body and you know, doing Tantric practices, doing breath work, doing other embodiment practices, and the more we can be in our body and actually approach this from that standpoint, then if something is challenging, then the way I encourage people to do that is like, move to this next step and see if you can like, stay in your body and stay like with any intensity. And if you're popping out, meaning if you're becoming disembodied and all of a sudden you're kind of like checking out, you're getting spacey, you're not able to stay present in the moment. That might be a sign that, oh, this is like push the pa uh, past your safety threshold. And maybe we need like a different way in. Maybe we need to talk about this different, you know, maybe you need to start at a different point. So that embodiment and that ability to practice that, which I think is something that is a continued practice for all of us is a huge signal for the individual to decide, hey, yeah, this is, this is differentiating from, I am safe to do this even though it's hard versus like maybe there is a level of like smart wisdom in my body saying maybe I'm not ready to go here yet.

Willow:

That's a really important distinction. It makes me, it makes my Chinese medicine brain go to the, the small intestine like the, the great discerner, you know, and it's, it's this place inside of us of, you know, the old adages of like, listen to your gut. What's your gut telling you? You know, and it's sort of like the, it's the enteric brain of the body, like the original brain of the body where we kind of, you know, develop from, and, and so you know, listening to that first instinct, that first gut reaction of like, I ha, ooh, I have resistance because I'm afraid of what's on the other side, and I don't know how to surrender through that resistance. I need help with that. Versus I have resistance and it's so deep, I can feel it in my bones, and it just, it means I'm not, I'm not there. I'm not ready for that

Leah:

not resourced enough to process maybe this piece, like, you know, I need to be grounded more. I need to be better resourced. I need to have certain types of support in order to feel safe, even though I'm doing something scary or hard.

Willow:

Yeah.

Diane:

Yeah, exactly, exactly. I love that. the Chinese medicine for that as well. It's, uh, you know, the, the physical of that is like sorting the good from the not needed in our food. Right? And it's like that same energetics. It's like information comes in and, you know, the small intestine energy in a healthy small intestine qi is going to do to be able to do that emotionally, mentally, with information to say, oh, this is useful to me, versus like, this actually doesn't resonate with me, which we need to apply I think every day.

Willow:

Mm-hmm.

Leah:

that. I love that phrase is, um, being able to sort out the good versus the not needed.

Willow:

Yeah. Separating the pure from the impure. Yeah.

Leah:

you know, way of saying something and it really shines a light. Like I can't help but reflect on my own life. Like, you know, I'm. Craving different things and like sort of the junk that I usually indulge in. I'm noticing I don't even want that. That's like, it's not needed at this time. Something else, something good is different that is calling for my attention and I'm so happy that it's linking to my desire. Um,

Diane:

Yeah.

Willow:

Diane, how did you get how I wanna hear the, let's, let's roll back. Let's zoom out. Let's talk about your Genesis story and like how you got into sexology, how you got into healing, how you got into naturopath, Chinese medicine, all the things.

Diane:

I grew up real Catholic as super religious and so, you know, sex before marriage, masturbation, any of that was very wrong. My genitals were just down there, you know, kind of conversation. And when my, when I went to college, I had a really good friend who became my roommates. I started having this unknown vulvar pain, and I say unknown because I, you know, went to docs and nobody was. Everybody was like, well, there's no infection, there's no disease, there's no problem. But this pain was keeping me up at night. It would get really bad at night. And so my friend, my roommate at the time, after you know me, confiding in her, you know about this continually and my frustration, she handed me a book, and the book was Betty Dotson's, sex For One. And you know, for anybody listening that has read this book, you may remember that in that book, Betty talks about not only the power of masturbation, but she talks about. Her experience of pain and other, you know, other symptoms going away. And so, you know, reading this and kind of struggling, I was like, all right, I'm gonna be brave. I'm gonna try self-pleasure. And that was my first experience with masturbation. And lo and behold, the pain went away.

Leah:

Wow.

Diane:

I an orgasm. It was just like self flavor. I was just like, okay, this is amazing. And then next day pain was back. Try it again. Pain went away again. So I did this for a period of several days. I don't remember the specific number, but eventually the pain just went away. Totally. And you know these moments in life where it's like. All beliefs leading to a point. And then there was something that like challenges, a belief and it like completely crumbles. It was like, you know, one of those kind of moments where I was like, okay, so there's this, this energy, we call it spirit, god, universe, what everybody, whatever anybody calls it, and. This energy that's supposed to be like, like making me like, you know, super powerful and you know, perfect in their eyes and all these things, you know, perfectly imperfect and all of that stuff. How could I have this thing that is a way to heal myself that is. Bad for me. So that it was just so impactful. So that's when I started reading books and, you know, getting my hands on whatever, you know, I could, and talking to who, whatever, who had whatever, let me, which back in those days was like, everything was so, you know, this was the late nineties, early two thousands. So things were really taboo back then, even more so than now. But that was, that was the original genesis story.

Leah:

I'm wondering if people listening who are experiencing vulva pain, can you talk about what that sensation was like? Was it just like in the labial lips? Could you feel it in the pelvic floor? What was that pain? What can you describe the sensation?

Diane:

Yeah, it was not just the lips. It was, it was like deep internal, like I, I think, you know now with more of an anatomical knowledge, I think it was all the way even into my bladder area, right? So it was very deep, it was very internal and it wasn't like this, like the sensation's a little hard to describe because it wasn't like this like, like sharp, like a pinched nerve, anything like that. It was almost like this, I guess gripping would be the right word. It was like almost this like gripping sensation that was, that was just, there. And it wasn't on a scale of how bad it was, by no means like a 10 out of 10 with it being like severe like that. But it was just like that continued like, like the other way I would describe it is I was constantly aware of my vulva and vagina, almost like when you stub a toe and the pain starts going away, but your brain's still thinking about the toe.

Willow:

Mm-hmm.

Diane:

Like that's another way I would describe it, where my brain was just like, there's my vagina, there's my vulva. Like my brain was just constantly aware of like. Something's wrong here.

Willow:

Hmm. How long was it? How long was it going on?

Diane:

Uh, it's hard to say because this was so long ago. Six months maybe. Something like that,

Willow:

So it just kind of came on all of a sudden. Yeah.

Diane:

No known, no known reason. Never figured it out.

Willow:

Very

Leah:

So it was like a, a tight gripping ache versus a sharp shooting, burning or

Willow:

Now, did you ever think about later on as you were getting into the Meridian system, did you ever think about like, oh yeah, well the liver runs through the genitals. I was really stressed at that time. I was, hadn't done a liver cleanse, wasn't eating well, anything along those lines.

Diane:

I mean it was, you know, that was definitely during my, uh, rockstar party day. So all of that was

Willow:

liver was activated.

Diane:

liver was activated. Um, certainly I think bladder, kidney meridians were probably probably involved as well. You know, the.

Willow:

Some fear maybe.

Diane:

Fear, the ability to, you know, sink deep. And even when we think about like, you know, the kidney energy is, you know, it's like that, that deep in it's like that ability to really sink in deeply, Um, that super watery, intuitive type of energy. And I like, like symptom wise, it coming out at night, for example. You know, that could have been an impactful part of it as well.

Leah:

interesting. So that orgasm really helped, um. Uh, move that stagnant Chi, do you think?

Diane:

Well, even just the sensation.'cause I don't, I don't believe, I know that first night I did orgasm and I don't have any, remember like memory of actually orgasming any of that time. You know, I didn't really know how to orgasm at, at all back then. Um, I'd never experienced orgasm, so I don't even think that I had an orgasm any of the times I was doing it, if I remember correctly. I think it was just bringing more circulation and more awareness. I was breathing, I remember breathing a lot and, and whatnot. And just feeling in, you know, that area. Maybe there was some level of, um, release with the tissue, you know, tightening and then releasing. So, you know, mechanistically, that's kind of how I've thought about it. Um, but from a standpoint of like orgasm, I don't even remember orgasming them, which is just shows like the power of this. Like we know how powerful orgasm is and, but also is just even like the touch along the way.

Willow:

Right,

Leah:

right. It's, I think that, I'm glad you mentioned that because that can be really under, um, underestimated just the power of bringing our conscious touch, our awareness and our breath to this private part of our body that is oftentimes shrouded in fear, guilt, and shame. And that can just be creating a holding pattern all by itself is just our cultural conditioning around how we feel about our genitals.

Diane:

When I decided that I was going to, you know, really turn this into a business and really, you know, put a lot more energy into getting this work and this information out to the world, which was. Um, at the end of my marriage and into my next partnership, so when my marriage ended, like towards the end of that, we were polyamorous. So we had opened up our relationship and we both had different reasons to do so. For me, my main objective with that was I was not feeling like the relationship was working for me and that we were in a place that I thought was fixable. And so I was just trying to figure out like. Is there an alternative solution that I can be still in this and still get some of the other things like filled up in my life that I felt like were essential to me, that were just not happening in my partnership?

Leah:

Oh.

Diane:

And it ended up not because of, of polyamory, um, that actually was, I would say, very successful from a standpoint of how we were communicating on that. But it ended up for, for several reasons, turning, you know, kind of, kind of messy and pretty hard towards the end. And my partner, who I was with, who I'm still with now in a monogamous relationship, he was just amazing at any of the stress. And I had a lot of career stress going on. We were trying to set, we owned a business together. We were working on separating that, which was just messy. And my partner was just giving me profound orgasms and I would be so stressed and not being able to sleep and not being able to sleep and not being able to sleep. And he was basically, I would, you know, say healing me with touch with pleasure, with orgasms in part too. His approach to me with all of this, the way that he was able to create so much safety for me and I was feeling very unsafe in my life. And the mental, like the mental and physical ways that he like, like physically meaning his presence, that he was able to show up and create safety, also continued to put effort, continued to put energy into the depth that I was able to go into orgasms, the length of orgasms that I was able to maintain. You know, those kind of things. And so it really is like a type A sympathetic, like, you know, I have two doctorate degrees, I have a bazillion certifications. Like I am not a sit home and do nothing kind of woman, and I don't tend to like move into that parasympathetic world very easily. I tend to like thrive on like productivity and overwhelm. So to.

Leah:

Show of hands if you can relate?

Diane:

So to like have this experience, to have somebody in the state, which was one of the more intense, stressful periods of my life and, and have somebody really show me the depths of what pleasure can do for bringing down that overwhelm, for resetting my nervous system, for preparing me for whatever challenges came that next day to be resourced. It took everything that I had already been studying and it really showed me like the level of healing on a completely different level. And that's when I was like, alright, I better, I better start sharing this with the world because like you said, like, like, who out there is not this current society? You know, so many of us, most of us are, are living in this hyper hypers sympathetic fight or flight overwhelm a lot.

Willow:

Healed by orgasms. Hooray.

Leah:

Yes. And those profound experiences with a partner who's so present and who's so safe and who ha probably has some skills, you know, uh, that all come to play together. Who's really invested in you being all that you can be and gets to, um, bask in your pleasure as like, probably one of the greatest rewards. Um, there's a certain evolved partner who can provide that and anchor that for someone else's nervous system. And I'm curious to hear from you what made that possible for him to show up for you in that way?

Diane:

it's such a good question. Yeah, I think it's, it's a combination of a lot of things. Like I have studied a lot of Alison Armstrong's work and her work on understanding men and understanding women, and this relationship was the first time I really felt like I was applying it fully. And so there was a level of going into it and instead of seeing as all, you know, Allison would say, where it's like so many, it's so easy as women because we don't understand men, to look at men as in comparing them to like the perfect wor woman. Right, and instead of actually realizing like, oh, this is actually how their brains, you know, function differently, it's like, you know, her work I feel like blows other work on the feminine masculine just outta the world from understanding the, the thinking process.

Willow:

Mm-hmm.

Diane:

So there was definitely something there.

Leah:

specific way that their systems can receive. Uh, her

Diane:

Yeah, helping them to be successful, you know, it's like men are, it's like made me fall in love, like not only with him, but with the masculine in general, because I understand men in such a different way and understand that like, oh, like men are amazing at like really wanting to, like a, a really embodied man is amazing at really wanting to provide so many things for his partner,

Willow:

Yeah. Another, another, um, another person who Allison is always kind of touting is, uh, Louann Brizendine She's the, she wrote the Male Brain and the Female Brain. I'm sure you've read those books,

Diane:

I have actually not read

Willow:

Oh, you gotta read

Diane:

you're giving good homework.

Willow:

Yeah. You are gonna, they're gonna be candy to you because it's just, it goes through, she's a brain neuroscientist and so she, um, you know, just really goes through the how, how the amygdala works. How the, you know, how the corpus callosum works in the male and female brains, how the different chemicals run through the body. And um, I have given those books, Allison's work and those two books to so many people, and even even moms of teenage boys, and they're like, oh, I get it now. You know? And it's like, we really are such, like the, the male brain, the female brain. We really are such different, different creatures and we see things so differently, so to understand. And Allison has given such a huge gift to the world. We're such big fans as well of her work.

Leah:

Yeah.

Diane:

Yeah, she's amazing.

Leah:

We've, we'll list Alison's episode, uh, on sex reimagined here in the show notes. For those of you who aren't familiar with her work, you'll really delight in that, uh, interview. Um, yeah. Okay. So Allison's work was a big influence. Was there anything else that he brought to the table that you think, um, uh, men or women who are listening to this would gain value? By maybe adapting some of the things he brought to the table or learning some of the things you know, that he had skills with coming into the relationship.

Diane:

Here was a huge and unique thing about, uh, my partner is, and it wasn't just was, is, is I should say. Um, he is deaf. So he actually lost his hearing when he was an infant of meningitis. And what that means in our relationship, he's an amazing lip reader, right? So he could be here talking to any of us and you know, and can read lips extremely well. But what that means is that in order for him to understand me, I can't talk a million miles an hour. I can't talk like this because he can't read my lips that way. And this whole thing that like we're taught as humans around like, slow down, think about what you're gonna say. All these kind of things. It forced me to develop that skill because if I would say something too fast, he'd be like. I can't hear you, honey. And then I'd have to go back and sometimes I'd even get a second shot at saying things because I said it fast and maybe not well, and it was like, oh, okay, now here's my opportunity to go back and practice. So I had a natural cue built in to my relationship. Right.

Willow:

What a cool way to bring the sympathetic dominant down into the parasympathetic. That's great.

Diane:

And so, you know, from a standpoint of this is not what most couples are going to be in, but even just thinking about, okay, is there any sort of cue that if they're gonna have a challenging conversation, like, you know, do you wanna consider having a special sound that like, oh, we're gonna have a challenging conversation. Maybe throw some Tibetan bell, you know, you know Tibetan music on where there's just like a bell every once in a while and every time you hear the bell, you know, that's a trigger for you to remember slow myself down because it just, it was unbelievable. And now, you know, we're four and a half years in, so I'm very acclimated to this. But in the beginning it was so, so amazing how many times I would find myself jumping and leaping without thinking, without choosing my words really thoughtfully, and and it forced me to, to do that.

Willow:

Are you an Aries by chance?

Diane:

I'm not, I'm actually a cancer.

Willow:

Oh, you're, you got the, the slow watery in you actually. Well, it must have been such a relief to your nervous system to start to be like to actually embody and be in practice of slowing down. And I imagine too that it changed the way that you delivered your message and taught to your students and your clients and

Diane:

Hundred percent. Yeah, I'm, I spend a lot more time now just like internally, how is my cadence? Like, you know, am I talking faster than people keep up with me because. Like I said, I'm Type A and you get me going my natural tendency is like, you know, running on a train that's like completely lost. Its breaks just as fast as can be.

Willow:

Hmm. So tell us about, uh, your work like, you know, if you're pulling from all these amazing different modalities, what, what's one of your favorite things that you get to help people with and teach them and guide them through?

Diane:

You know, I love talking about the brain and the high that we get in new relationship energy and dopamine, and what dopamine is doing to drive that chemical change in the beginning of the relationship. Because I think from a standpoint of getting out of our sexual scripts and bringing more novelty in. And you know, back to how we introduce this particular conversation around, okay, well how do we not get in the G chord? Right? How do we continue to add new things? Well, some of that is understanding. What drives passion, you know, and a lot of the beginning part of that new relationship energy is because of not only the novelty, but it's like the space because how dopamine works and dopamines are reward as well as our motivation, brain chemical. And so in that new relationship, when we don't know if they're gonna call. We don't know if they're gonna text and we're like thinking about it and there's kind of a motivation. There's a little dopamine saying, I hope they call. I hope they call. I hope they call. And then they call and then Ping gets a ton more dopamine. And then it's like, well, you get that anticipatory for that date. And the same thing happens for, are they gonna text after the date and the first kiss? And. All the things. And so one of the things that happens when we combine and we move in together or combine our lives in any way, we are taking away kind of that space and that anticipation, right? And that's where like adding the novelty back in it, it's so helpful. But it's not just about that new thing. It's not just about the C chord and the D chord and those new chords. It's about the way we introduce those chords because the more we can say, okay, this is where planning can be sexy. Because the more we can do things around like, okay, well on, you know, Friday night we're gonna try tying me up for the first time, or you know, any new thing. That's interesting. Then if we talk about that, doing that on a Monday, then what that's doing is it's bringing back that dopamine. So then we start thinking about it, and maybe we start flirt texting again and it brings that dopamine. And so what we're doing is we're creating that space between now and this exciting thing and allowing the brain to think about it and get used to it and get like excited about it. And then when it happens, we get that big rush of dopamine and by it's applying those same principles from a new relationship energy to a long-term scenario. We're able to create in many ways, a lot of that chemical drive that we had early on.

Willow:

Mm. I love that. So powerful. And so with your couples who are coming to you, they've been together a long time. They're like, yeah, we just. Go down the same g chord all the time. What should we do? You know, the, are you giving them those kind of things. Why don't you guys try trying each other up on Friday night? Like, are you giving them actual like techniques like Jabari and and Tantra techniques and things like that

Diane:

Very, very much so. Very much so. I guess starting place for people is my yes, no, maybe checklist, and that's at www.MySexDoc.com for anybody that wants that. But even with that, like one of the important things I, and, and the, let me take a step back In the Yes no, maybe checklist, what it is is. You take this and you say, oh, these are the things that we're both interested in. These are the maybes. Are there anything that a maybe could be shifted to turn a maybe into a yes, or how would a maybe become a no? But one of the important things I think about having support, you know, from, you know, from you guys, from people like myself through any of this is just like anything, if we are having the conversations around, well, you are a yes and I'm a, maybe we could have to be so careful about how we have these conversations because the ego gets so involved. So it's very, very. Um, importance before we try these conversations or we do something like a yes no, maybe checklist that we have a, a conversation around. If you think something I bring up that I'm interested in is maybe a little weird or it's surprising to you or anything like that, we can actually pre. Conversate have pre-framed this and say, this is how I want you to respond to me if you're surprised by what I say. And the reason we do that is because it can be a very, if, if we don't have these conversations, well, you know, it can be such a trigger for people to be like, oh my gosh. Like I am like turned off by that. And my partner likes that. And like, it can be so easy for somebody to spout something out of their mouth that creates a trauma for the other person and they were so vulnerable and now they shut down. So before we even do that, we gotta pre-frame, this is how we're gonna respond in those scenarios.

Willow:

Gold right there.

Leah:

What's a good example? Could you actually, um, give us an example of a, of a frame that maybe some languaging that, um, a couple or maybe even people who are dating for the first time as they kind of break into communication styles.

Diane:

Yeah, so I'll give you an example. And then the other thing in, you know, considering this as a listener is always make this, of course, true and authentic for you. So the example I give may, may or may not resonate with you, but just as a, a starting point. So a good thing to ask for somebody is something like curiosity. So curiosity can be a, a useful way of having these kind of responses. So for example, you know, let's say I'm going to ask my partner. To tie me up and my partner has never heard this before and I'm worried about how he's going to respond. So I might pre-frame and say, Hey, I, you know, let's, let's do our yes no, maybe checklist. I wanna tell you a little bit about, about some of these things that came up as yeses for me. There's a couple things that I feel a little nervous to tell you about. I've just, you know, I've never told anybody about this and it just feels like really scary to me. So, even if you don't like it, I'm wondering if you can, you know, if you're not liking something, I'm wondering if you can say, wow, what a beautiful expression. I am. Like, so curious about, you know, your interest in exploring this and, and do you have any sense of like, you know, what this would do for you or why you're interested in it? And maybe I'm not. I'm not really sure, or this might be a, a hard no for me. I'm not sure, but, but this is such a beautiful expression of sexuality and even if I can't do this, I'm really interested in knowing why this is alive for you. Something like that.

Willow:

That would be a much better response than, uh, I'm a no.

Leah:

Yeah. Or that's weird, or

Willow:

Yeah. Shut it down. Cause causing unnecessary shame. We don't want that.

Leah:

right. Yeah. I think, uh, as we like to always say, um, curiosity, suffocates judgment, and what we all really want is to be understood and gotten. And so even though you may want a yuck. My yum.

Diane:

Yeah. That's great. Well said.

Leah:

Resist that expression of yuck and allow yourself to get really curious. While I'm really invested and I really care about this person, and I wanna know more, I wanna know, I wanna understand you even more, and I can hold space for your desire without feeling pressured to fulfill your desire. Just the liberation of, of seeking what do I desire deep within ourselves, and then taking the next step and having courage to then explore what it feels like to say what those desires are out loud is such a step of bravery. And to be able to hear yourself have that experience out loud for you to be with someone who says, your desires are safe with me. Even if they're not my desires, I care enough about you in this moment right now, to know you more and to, and to get what this is about for you.

Diane:

Yeah, it's so, there's so much capacity, I think for depth, you know, that can happen from those questions when we don't shut it down. Because, you know, even like asking somebody like, you know, what is interesting about this? You know, for you, I'm really curious. Right? And maybe they don't know, like, we don't know the reason for, there might not be a reason for all of our fantasy's. Sometimes it's just like, well that sounds sexy and hot. So there there might not be anything to be said, but it there might be. Right? And sometimes we ask the question around, you know, what is it? And, and you know, ChAARI is so interesting, right? Like the idea of being tied up and many, many people have an experience with it, of when you're actually restrained like that, of actually feeling safe and held right. And so

Leah:

Not trapped, actually held. It's very fascinating how upon looking at something for the first time, you might have associations when, when you actually look into it even deeper. Um, for many people it could be an opposite association. And then to find out, well, when did you first have that desire and what does that remind you of? And can open up just so much closeness.

Diane:

Exactly. Yeah, exactly. And just having, go ahead. I'm sorry.

Willow:

And that's why people do it generally, is to, to, to drop themselves into that subspace. I, I, I'm, I'm guessing, I'm imagining for you, Diane, that going into Subspace is like really a powerful thing for you since you do run at a yang dominant sort of drive and, and natural nervous system. And, um, you know, I've been doing cranial sacral for a couple decades now and, um, you know, taking people into that deep, deep relaxation. Well, whereas a lot of times they kind of like go asleep or they go into this, you know, liminal space. So, and then, and then the practitioner is kind of like walking their nervous system deeper and deeper into this subspace. But what I have found myself from, from playing with sub/dom roles and containment and going in, is like you actually get to walk yourself into that subspace. And there's something really unique and powerful about that to, to allow somebody to tie you up to, to contain you, to hold you to surrender into, um, the, the container of someone else. Really cool.

Diane:

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think it's a really good example of how, one of the things I say a lot is pleasure is not just about desire, but something we require, and I say that for several reasons, but one of them is perfectly illustrated by, you know what you're bringing up, which is how much healing can actually happen from everything from a standpoint of physical intimacy, you know, expression, not even, of course, just, you know, way beyond just, uh, penetration. Right. Exactly.

Leah:

I, I think that's a really interesting and defining um, distinction that is worth exploring a little bit. And I also have, I also have another other question I don't wanna miss asking you. Um, but to make this point first is that. We can learn new tricks, techniques, and love making positions, right? To activate our partner and to open our partner to more pleasure. But when you bring up the healing component, uh, it, what it does to me is it deepens something. So that how we play with each other sexually has more meaning. Not just friction and friction is awesome, and learning about all the science and what happens to the brain and how we build arousal and attraction and all that stuff. We also, have so much incredible information at our fingertips that can explain neurologically and physiologically what's happening through the science of our attraction, our arousal, and seeking more pleasure and higher pleasure. But that's separate from sort of the healing aspects and the spiritual or the sacred aspects make some of that devoid of meaning. And we are meaning making machines as humans. And so I think we get to take partnership and intimacy to a much deeper level when we can apply some meaning to it. And so you're, yes, no, maybe checklists is where it also provides an opportunity for us to discover deep inside of ourselves what meaning we make from these, you know, attractions, desires, curiosities, yearning, longing, so on and so forth, or big fat no's.

Willow:

What's on the checklist? I wanna know what's on that checklist?

Leah:

Yeah, I wanna, what's on the checklist and I wanna know. How do you help someone who's really stuck in their yuck, who hears something that their partner says that is like really big for them and they just have an aversion or a disgust and they get really stuck in going,

Willow:

Like they can't even find their way to curiosity around

Diane:

Yeah. Yeah, it's I the answer to that there's so many different places we can go, of course, like any of these questions, but one of my favorite ways to help people with that is really linked in my mind to you know, to, without getting too sy, but to what is happening to the brain with intimacy from a standpoint of like meditation in an altered state. Because when we are really embodied, right, when we are practicing mindfulness throughout our intimacy, and the mind wanders for a second, we catch it and we bring it, bring it right back to our body and the sensations, and we're doing that as we get into these more altered states. And you know, the more liminal space that gets created, like you had mentioned Dr. Willow. When we, when all of this happens, just like with hypnosis, our brain is more suggestible. So one of my favorite self, you know, healing practices that I love to do with my partner is to bring up anything that is, you know, on my mind around like a belief that I'm like, this is not serving me. I need to reprogram the heck out of this. Maybe there's a microtrauma I have from something he said, or something somebody else said, and it's like in my consciousness. Whatever it is. And I think about, and I talk openly with him around like, wow, this is what I, this is what I wanna program my nervous system with. This is the belief. And so then at at moments with intimacy as like he can tell that energy is heightened, you know, he will whisper, you know, in this very soothing very parasympathetic dominant voice while I'm in my body, while I'm connected to my, you know, my parasympathetic nervous system, he will be whispering these mantras in my ear and like helping me reprogram my brain. So obviously if, you know, if a partner is involved in a microtrauma like this, if they said something that did not feel good and we're creating a story and a belief and a meaning, which we do as humans, our partner has to show up. So this activity is, you know, in some ways like an advanced activity for people. But if you're at a point where your partner is like, you know, you have that type of communication and your partner's willing to play here, it's a really fun way of, of actually reprogramming the nervous system and the belief and the story while you guys are being intimate and making love.

Willow:

Mm-hmm.

Diane:

Yeah.

Willow:

Amazing.

Diane:

And then on my yes, no maybe checklist. There's, it's, it's an interesting checklist because there's a lot of things on there that are not about sex. So it's, it's intimacy and so it's, you know, it's various things for, would you consider this for a date night? And then there's different places, like the way I look at novelty oftentimes is people, places, things and things that fall into those three categories. So things could be anything such as ropes or any sort of anything in the BDSM world. It could be vibrators. It could be handcuffs, you know, it could be anything that's a thing. Um, places is obvious. You know, I'd like to help people remember that places can be as simple as like in your closet instead of in your bed, right? It can make these super small changes. And, um, and then people, so I, I do work with monogamous couples most primarily. So the way I help people in monogamy get into the role of using people from a novelty standpoint is through role playing is one way. Mm-hmm. Um, through even doing things like wigs or costume play can be another thing, So you're taking another persona. And I really love bringing in like. Archetypes from sensual dance or from S Factor from Sheila Kelly's work and And the archetypes I think are so wonderful. They're so phenomenal to play with because they're almost like these, you know, these different personas and, and you know, parts of us. So for example, one archetype in S factor lineage is the dangerous challenger. And the dangerous challenger is kind of what she sounds like, right? She's like, she's kind of like ferocious. She's like, you know, she's a boss. She's a little dangerous. She's edgy

Willow:

In my mind, she has a whip in her hand. Like a

Diane:

might

Willow:

bowl whip. Yeah. She's wearing leather.

Leah:

In my mind, she's topping from the bottom.

Willow:

Yeah.

Leah:

Like a little brat.

Diane:

But that's exactly right. So it's like the dangerous challenger energy's gonna be different in all of us. And so it's a really fun thing to kind of get to know these archetypes. Like, you know, another one's an innocent teaser. And I think of that, like for me that's like the, you know, almost like the high school cheerleader, right? Like that type of vibe. And, you know, almost kind of getting yourself in that state around. We all have these archetypes in us, some of them more dominant than other, like any, you know, like just about any archetypical model out there. And so when we can actually learn about these and be like, okay, well how am I gonna sink into the energy of the innocent teaser. And how would the innocent teaser show up tonight? And what is, how would she move and how would she make love and how would she express? And you know, it's interesting. Sometimes I play with this without even like telling my partner. And he'll be like, what was what? What were you doing? What was that? So he can

Willow:

I like that.

Diane:

right?

Willow:

Yeah, yeah, What I love.

Leah:

they've

Willow:

know, I love that you're bringing the archetypes to, to our conversation right now because it's like we get to put on a, a, a mask. Like we get to put on a different person persona, a different part of ourselves that we don't usually give ourself. Oh, I'm not that, I'm not an innocent teaser, I'm not a challenger. You know, like, that's not me, but let me put that on, play that part and see what part of me comes alive when I play that role. I just did the, um, the light dark Institute's work with, with their dark type stuff and similar kind of, you know, archetypes like the, you know, the violent de, the violent destroyer, you know, and the the, um, the challenger and, and, and the needy retch. Oh my God, I need your love so bad. I don't know, i'm never gonna be able to live without it, you know? It's just like, it feels good to just allow yourself to go into these different places inside that we all carry, because otherwise they're just lurking in the shadows. They're staying in the unconscious, and then somehow they creep into our, you know, relationships with each other and cause a little bit of discord.

Diane:

Yeah, I think Carl Jung really got it right with the shadow on that.

Willow:

Yeah, for sure.

Leah:

Well this has been so much fun and your work is so fascinating. We feel so touched and honored to have you on the show. Is there anything else you wanna leave our audience with any other gem or treasure that maybe they could noodle over or even practice?

Diane:

Yeah, well two things. One, I do encourage everybody to go take my libido quiz because that's gonna help you identify some of those root causes behind low libido. So it's free quiz www.LibidoQuiz.com. So I do encourage you to do that. And secondly, get Comfortable with the fact that sometimes it is awkward. I think, you know, the, the avoiding awkward sex and avoiding those awkward moments, and especially if somebody has not been trying something for a while, or maybe you haven't been having sex or intimacy for a while, you know, maybe you're just, you know, in this best friend kind of role. It can feel awkward and like, you know, without having all that energy of that new relationship energy, it's almost like starting sometimes with the first kiss, without all of that energy, and you have to figure out how do your lips fit together again sometimes, and how do you respond to their style, right.

Leah:

Yeah.

Diane:

Sometimes still things happen. Like my partner and I banged our heads together during sex the other day and had to take a break because it really hurt. You know? So that was like an awkward transition, right? And so, you know, so I think the more we can just accept that when we're trying new things or when we're starting over that it's, it's just being awkward doesn't have to be a bad thing. We can make it silly. We can, you know, we can laugh about it. And, and just bringing that acceptance into this is actually a normal part of trying new things. Not everything's gonna work and, and not expecting it to, you know, look like a, you know, perfect movie porn shot all the time because that's just not realistic.

Leah:

Yeah. And remember, awkward can be charming and there's a lot of erotic

Willow:

It's funny.

Leah:

and awkward, and it can be lots great fodder for laughter. And yes, who doesn't wanna be confident, but it's kind of unrealistic in every situation and, and sex is the perfect place for us to yearn for confidence, but really be awkward. So just embrace that on your way to confidence. I love that.

Willow:

Yeah.

Diane:

exactly.

Leah:

And where can people find your yes no, maybe checklist.

Diane:

So that's at www.MySexDoc.com. So super easy. Yep.

Willow:

great.

Leah:

free also.

Diane:

free also.

Leah:

Two free gifts. One episode. That is exciting. We'll make sure that's in the show notes.

Willow:

Thank you Diane. Such a pleasure to have you today.

Diane:

Same. Thank you ladies.

Leah:

Okay, stay tuned because the dish is up next and you know how much we like to dish it out.

Announcer:

Now our favorite part, the dish.

Leah:

Well, wasn't that just a yummy taster? A

Willow:

So good. Love Diane. I love talking to her. She's, uh, just, you know, she, she plays in the, in the realm of so many things that I hold near and dear to my heart. So hormones and Chinese medicine and BDSM and you know, the archetypes and fuck. Kept going and going with

Leah:

Yeah. Yeah.

Willow:

And like the neuroscience, she's real into the neuroscience. I love that.

Leah:

Yeah. And, and the archetypes and Nelson Armstrong, I mean, so many realms that line up, you

Willow:

She's a sister.

Leah:

Yeah. A sister from another Mr. for sure. Um. Yeah, I really loved a lot of the things you brought to the table that, um, you know, just embrace awkwardness is so key. Being able to choose curiosity when you're learning about your partner and some of the things they're uncovering about what, what titillates them.

Willow:

Mm-hmm.

Leah:

Coming from a nonjudgmental space, the yearning to be understood. All those things are what I think deepen our intimacy. And I think it answers this longing that so many of us discover inside of ourselves, which is the question, there's gotta be something more to sex. There just has got to be something more than what I've experienced so far. And it's this, the, the meaning that we make of things and our ability to expose some of our inner thoughts and our inner desires to another person and to have that be received, um, I think is what builds that trust and what builds that safety so that we can actually start to go there.

Willow:

Oh yeah. So, so beautiful. And I love, you know, one of the things that she really, that I wanna highlight, that she talked about was how to have these conversations of like, oh, I, I would like to try this. And setting up your partner for success by saying, Hey, I'm a little nervous to tell you about this, and before I go into ex explaining what I am desiring and why I, this is what I wanna hear back from you. Here are the actual words that I wanna hear back. Let me give them to you straight so that it's easy for you to, um,

Leah:

Get a

Willow:

hold.

Leah:

me.

Willow:

exactly.

Leah:

Yeah,

Willow:

Yeah. Co-creating those win-wins is, is so, so my, uh, an amazing part of what she does.

Leah:

yeah. All right. Well, cool. Thanks y'all. Please, uh, like, comment and subscribe. Tell us what you think about this episode and what it means to you and we will catch you next time. Love, love, love.

Willow:

Much level.

Announcer:

Thanks for tuning in. This episode was hosted by Tantric Sex Master Coach and positive psychology facilitator, Leah Piper, as well as by Chinese and Functional Medicine doctor and Taoist Taxology teacher, Dr. Willow Brown. Don't forget your comments, like subscribes and suggestions matter. Let's realize this new world together.

People on this episode

Head Shot

Dr. Willow Brown

Host
Head Shot

Leah Piper

Host
Head Shot

Dr. Diane Mueller

Guest