Max Carey: Filmmaker Confession - I Thought I Knew Sex Until I Made This Documentary | #146

In a world where 85% of BDSM practitioners state that consent and boundaries are critical factors in their activities, there's a revolutionary approach to intimacy that mainstream relationships desperately need to learn. What if the secret to deeper sexual satisfaction isn't found in vanilla dating trends, but in the structured communication practices of the kink community? Join hosts Leah Piper and Dr. Willow Brown as they dive deep with filmmaker Max Carey, creator of the provocative documentary "Touch Kink." This isn't just another sex documentary—it's a transformative exploration of human sexuality that challenges our deepest assumptions about desire, consent, and sexual identity.

🎧 EPISODE HIGHLIGHTS YOU DON'T WANT TO MISS:

• The dominatrix meeting that changed everything - How one honest conversation sparked Max's entire documentary journey
• Why labels are BS - Max's revelation that humans are "organic and analog," not meant for sexual boxes
• The secret communication formula - The structured approach kink communities use: negotiate → explore → check-in → integrate
• Historical sexual pioneers - Leonardo da Vinci, Alan Turing, and other "kinky" minds who invented our world
• Public vs. private identity - Why being "two people" isn't contradictory—it's healthy
• The biochemistry of pleasure and pain - How contrast creates deeper satisfaction in life and relationships
• Community matters - Why Max now prefers "kink-informed" people and spaces
• The Circle of Touch - Max's philosophy on completing emotional and physical cycles with partners

LINKS & RESOURCES MENTIONED IN THE EPISODE CAN BE FOUND ON THE WEBSITE: https://www.sexreimagined.com/blog/max-carey-filmmaker-confession-i-thought-i-knew-sex-until-i-made-this-documentary-146 

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Chapters

• 0:00 Introduction and Guest Welcome
• 0:00 33:24 Emotional Resilience: Surfing Life's Natural Waves
• 0:00 32:12 Pleasure and Pain: The Biochemistry of Human Experience
• 0:00 30:53 Touch Kink Philosophy: The Circle of Connection
• 0:00 28:30 Multiple Identities: Public and Private Self Integration
• 0:00 25:27 Adult Play: Rediscovering Experimental Curiosity
• 1:24 Meet Max Carey: Filmmaker and World Traveler
• 2:31 The Dominatrix Meeting That Changed Everything
• 4:16 Breaking Stereotypes: Inside the Kink Community
• 5:05 The Infinite Spectrum of Human Sexual Desire
• 6:30 Creative Geniuses Throughout History: Leonardo to Turing
• 9:17 Consent Culture: The Foundation of BDSM Practice
• 11:11 Finding Your Tribe: Community and Sexual Acceptance
• 18:36 Beyond Labels: Why Sexual Identity is Fluid
• 22:53 BDSM Structure: Negotiation, Scene, and Aftercare
• 26:04 Revolutionary Communication: Boundaries Create Freedom
• 28:06 Adult Play: Rediscovering Experimental Curiosity
• 31:09 Multiple Identities: Public and Private Self Integration
• 33:32 Touch Kink Philosophy: The Circle of Connection
• 34:51 Pleasure and Pain: The Biochemistry of Human Experience
• 36:03 Emotional Resilience: Surfing Life's Natural Waves
• 37:41 Identity and Suffering: Holding Reality Gently
• 39:24 Discomfort as Growth: Dopamine, Discipline, and Resilience
• 43:16 Cross-Cultural Sexuality: Lessons from 137 Countries
• 45:40 Supporting Sexual Diversity: Innovation Requires Open Minds
• 51:28 Independent Filmmaking: Building Audience Before Release
• 54:24 Honoring January Sarah: Documentary Tribute and Loss
• 56:15 The Dish with Leah & Dr. Willow

Transcript

Leah: 1:03

Welcome to the show. I'm Leah Piper with Dr. Willow Brown. We are your hosts for the Sex Reimagined podcast, and we're about to dig right in. But before we do we wanna remind you to go ahead and hit that subscribe button. And while you're listening, as thoughts show up and feelings show up, go ahead and leave us comments. We absolutely love that and appreciate them.

Willow: 1:23

Absolutely. And today we have an incredible guest, max Carey, filmmaker and world Traveler with a passion for exploring diverse cultures and subcultures. He recently completed a documentary called Touch Kink, which is a provocative documentary, delving into kink and self-expression, and it was so cool to chat with him about the inside scoop of what he learned, you know, how his whole life changed from doing this documentary.

Leah: 1:53

So please tune in, turn on, and fall in love with Max.

Announcer: 1:57

Welcome to the Sex Reimagined Podcast, where sex is shame-free and pleasure forward. Let's get into the show.

Leah: 2:06

Alright. Welcome Max to the Sex Reimagined podcast.

Willow: 2:09

Yeah. We're so excited to have you here. I mean, you've completed this amazing documentary on kink. I'm so excited to hear more about it and and how you even came to it.

Max: 2:22

Oh my goodness. Um, how we, how many hours do we have? I know.

Willow: 2:29

Yeah.

Max: 2:31

I met a dominatrix one day. I probably had met many before, um, but she wasn't what I expected. She sat down and answered my stupid questions. You know, I'm a pretty regular guy and, and I had this idea, this crazy idea as of what she would be, and she wasn't any of those things. She was kind, she took her time with me and she went through it. I'm like, wow, there's really a lot to learn from this person. And that was the beginning of the trip

Willow: 3:01

Okay. Wow. And so did you work on this project with her specifically, or did that just kind of lead you down the path?

Max: 3:08

No, I, I did actually, in fact, um, I was working on a bunch of other things and, uh, she was so passionate about it. I mean, the world of kink and BDSM and sexuality in general is, is about trust, you know, and like she really opened a lot of doors for me. She, she recommended people and they got to know me. And then one person led to two people, two people led to four. And so, so her reference her like, you know, this person isn't out to,'cause there'd been a lot of projects about how crazy people are doing all this weird shit. Um, and once she realized I wasn't asking those kind of questions, I wasn't asking, she had literally worked on a documentary a little earlier that was like, how kink ruins your life. Yeah, those kind of questions are definitely like, they're not aiming for any kind of balance. And my, my questions were different. My questions were genuine. They were like, I really need to understand this a little bit better. Why? What is it? Like, what, why are people liking this? How are they different? And so her reference and her vouching for me kind of really got the ball rolling.

Leah: 4:16

Now was this January, Sarah? Is that how I say her name? Okay. Um, and I watched the documentary. I really enjoyed it. Um, it was really interesting to watch all of these creative people, um, express themselves and to see the relationships that they had with their submissives. in particular, I really enjoyed the dominatrix from, um, Texas, I believe, and her little group of submissives. It was really interesting to see that dynamic and how worshipful and grateful her submissives were to her. Um, it really, it was really quite lovely to see. What were some of the things in the making of this film that surprised you?

Max: 5:04

Um, I mean, I always had this suspicion that everybody thought so differently. I mean, I knew some people are gay and some people are straight and some people are bi. But it is, it surprised me just how big that human spectrum is. You know, Briggs Myers has this, like, I know that's pop psychology, but there's 16. The reality is there's infinite.

Willow: 5:26

Yeah.

Max: 5:27

It's sort of this infinite thing of like things people get turned on by and things people connect with. And I guess it maybe it shouldn't be so surprising, I suppose,'cause we fall in love with different kinds of people and sometimes our friends are surprised or this or that. But just the sheer magnificence of what humans love and turns them on and empowers them and that that diversity isn't something to be afraid of at all. That diversity is something to be celebrated. And, you know, gimme two seconds to be political, but I'm, I'm worried that like, we don't wanna compact this down to this binary old kind of thing. And nor should we, because these creative minds and these beautiful people and all these crazy ways, they will invent the future. And they have, they have, name a major invention. It was pretty much invented by a Kiki person.

Willow: 6:23

Good to know.

Leah: 6:24

Really?

Max: 6:26

Leonard, this is my next film, and

Willow: 6:27

this is sounds fascinating film.

Max: 6:30

Leonardo da Vinci arrested for Crimes Against Nature. Okay. Um,

Willow: 6:37

Yeah. What does that mean?

Max: 6:39

it was just probably bi, but at that point that was whatever it was, you know, he was just a little bit more open-minded than the average florent, or not Florentina,'cause he was Venetian, uh, to be more accurate. Uh, Alan Turing, the inventor of the computer, you know, just. You know, good old fashioned, you know, gay, bi, whatever, and, you know, chemically castrated in spite of like ending World War ii, probably five years faster than anything else. I mean,

Willow: 7:06

what about Albert

Max: 7:07

a, I mean, well, you know, I,

Willow: 7:11

know about

Max: 7:11

was thinking about that. Einstein actually there has been letters. Einstein wrote letters to his wife about basically, don't, do not bother me. Here are the roles that you shall do. I think he was just really kind of, I think he was sort of like passionately asexual.

Willow: 7:27

Yeah.

Max: 7:27

and he was very, like, that was his thing. And he recognized, I mean, I don't, if he was living, he, you know, if gay was more normal, he would've been gay. He didn't, it wasn't about that for him. He just wasn't into sex. He was into his numbers. He was. Uh, uh, a fetishist for numbers. And I honestly believe for Mozart, Beethoven, there's a few, oh, is it Tchaikovsky, um, killed himself. Now, they found out he was killed because he was gay in a time where Russia wasn't really down with that, you know, and you know, they gave him this way out. So, I mean, you think about some of the most brilliant minds. I don't understand why we're trying to like push this back down to everyone, shall be this or that. It's not, I mean, even if you're the most right wing, fucking conservative, crazy person, you should encourage this Right. because this is what we have. Creativity of the mind.

Willow: 8:21

The beauty of being human is the rainbow of humans on the planet.

Leah: 8:25

Well, also

Max: 8:26

the US military should be, should be paying for the LGBTQ plus kind of things to get those ideas coming, you know?

Leah: 8:33

I mean, I think also it's. Uh, uh, I can't imagine not being touched by the undeni ability of someone's pleasure when they are lit up and turned on and their system opens. I don't know what's more beautiful than that. And when you feel that light shine out of somebody, it's contagious. It's beautific. Um. My system opens when I am in the presence of that. So I wanna see that kind of light in the world. Um, and I think as long as, and I think where the edges come into play and things get crunchy, kind of comes down to consent. I'm, uh, was listening to a book called The Heart of Dominance lately, and one of the things that's interesting that he was talking about is, you know, the first time he put a collar on his partner with a leash and walked her around in a public place. They drove four hours away to not run into anybody that they may know, and he considered is it consensual for me to do this in front of other people who haven't given me their consent to wanting to see me walk my girlfriend around on a leash.

Willow: 9:52

Hmm.

Leah: 9:52

Like you have to play these edges of what's okay to expose people to, at what point do you need someone's consent to expose them to something that lights you up? And I thought, I had never heard of those distinctions before. That kind of consideration, that kind of, um, I guess wanting to protect the triggers of others. You can only do that so much before you're infringing on your own freedom. So,

Willow: 10:24

such a balance.

Leah: 10:25

it's a way bigger, you know, concept for me to tackle on this show. But I was struck with, with that, uh,

Max: 10:34

I think it boils down to, I hope I'm not interrupting

Leah: 10:37

No, please.

Max: 10:40

I think it boils down to your community. I mean, if you think about it, like, okay, you are showing cleavage. You know, there are people there. I, I'm blown away by people who have issues with breastfeeding. They like, you're feeding a baby and somebody can feel offended by that. This is everyday kind of thing. It's like, um, so I'm in charge of your mind and I'm just trying to take care of my child. I'm sorry, but this seems a bit ridiculous. There is this like community. Personally, um, the more I did this film and the more I've explored this world, I don't like people that aren't kinky. I don't like people that aren't kink informed. I

Willow: 11:20

Tell us why.

Leah: 11:21

us why.

Max: 11:22

know. With those, I like to go to big events where everybody's like pretty kink in form. So if they see you, you know, with somebody on a leash or do whatever, they're like, okay, cool. Might not be my kink, your kink, whatever.

Willow: 11:33

a deeper sense of acceptance. Yeah.

Max: 11:36

You know, but in the end it's just community. So what you're, you're, you're doing the, the universe's work here by helping expand people's minds. It shouldn't be a big deal to see, I mean, your average person working for a corporation may not have a literal chain around their neck, but that tie is pretty symbolic. You know, their suits, they're literally, they're owned by some corporation. That's perfectly acceptable. Why? What's the big deal of having someone who was like, I really want to wear the collar runway. It's the same stuff in the end. It's not about what's wrong or right, it's what that culture or that little bubble that you play in is worth in some cultures, the Germans still to this day, you know, lunch break, German business guy goes to the park, takes off all his clothes, gets completely naked, hangs out, suns himself, eats his lunch. Completely but naked because it feels good for him. Put his clothes back on, goes back to the bank. We would think that's weird, but it's normal there. You know, just culture. It's just what you grow up with and what you're used to. There is no wrong or right other than violating people's consent. That's the only for me. That's the only thing that's wrong.

Willow: 12:43

Yeah.

Max: 12:44

if you violate someone's consent, that's wrong. Uh, we are gonna make mistakes. We're stupid people. When I was a teenager, I probably did a lot of stupid shit. Um, I would like to think I would never do that again, and I know better and would ask the questions, and I have, but we are gonna make mistakes as humans. But the best we can do is always like, read the room, try and like prepare the situation. And the best thing is to always be in the right room.

Willow: 13:12

For you at that point in your evolution? Right, because it's like we're, we're always evolving at different levels and different paces and so yeah. Finding, finding your place in the world that matches the frequency of where you're at.

Leah: 13:26

Yeah. And if I, and if you, and, and making a choice within yourself, if you could be so inspired by what we're talking about today, those of you who are listening is being the kind of person who, um, inspires an open-minded inclusive, um, spirit Yeah. In the rooms that you walk into so that people that, so that more people have an ability and a chance to feel safe in, in your presence. I certainly endeavor to be those

Willow: 15:29

I mean, that's one of the top things I hear in the Tantra community where people are stepping into it for the first time and they're like, wow, I feel so. Like, I can just be myself and not be judged, you know, and just be really authentically, um, me. Which is so, so that's what we need more of in the world. So I'm curious, uh, max, like you've, you've created other documentaries and I'm just so curious, like when you were creating this one, how, how did it, how did it affect you differently or more deeply? Was there anything that you really learned or took away that's transformed you forever.

Max: 16:09

Um, yes, for sure. And it's probably the same thing that I hope audiences get from the documentary. You know, I'm pretty boring straight, relatively dominant man who was kind of surprised by all this. And developed a huge new respect for the, the women and the people that thought differently than me. And if I'm honest, I thought that was a bit weird. Even though I've had the opportunity and thought that seems a bit okay. Hmm. But now I, I know these people and I know they're, they're happy in that. So the biggest change I think for me was making this real, not just, this wasn't theoretical anymore. It's like to a new country and really getting to know the food and getting to know the people and really like, wow, this is very different than back home. So forever, I'm forever changed by my mind opening more to the possibilities of all of it. And honestly, also it's like the, the evolution you go through as a human being too. You're, you're like, you find yourself realize how much of who I am is what I was told to be, and how much of who I am is really what I wanna be, or that I'm aware of.

Leah: 17:26

Mm-hmm.

Max: 17:28

Then certain things like res, you know, the kinky community in general resonated more with me. Like, oh my God, I can talk about anything. You know, I can like just be open. I say, excuse me, this may not be your thing, but blah, blah, blah. I'm like, wow. How refreshing to have this kind of conversations without going, oh, can I say that? Am I allowed to talk about this? Are they gonna think I'm weird? If I, there was a time when I was a young man where I thought, oh my God, if I want to finger up my bum, I must be gay.

Willow: 17:55

Right. Yeah.

Max: 17:56

Well, if it was a guy, you wanted that or whatever, sure, nothing wrong with that. But if it's a hot girl that you wanted, you're probably not. But you know, like you think that you have these crazy ideas that

Willow: 18:07

Limit.

Max: 18:07

gay, as you know. Oh my goodness. Only that per but. But who do you want having do that? Oh, I want a hot girl. Do it. Or a woman do it. Probably not. But you know, you know, for me, I, I, I like, and I, I'm working with a few AI companies right now and I'm working with, uh, helping people understand the world differently.'Cause the problem right now, and even L-G-B-T-Q and Kink has this, they wanna put themselves into these boxes. I'm a span co. I'm a fem dom. I'm a sub. I'm a rope person. I'm a gay, I'm straight. Humans don't fit into boxes. We are organic in everything and it's flowing. Sometimes you're more feminine, whatever that means to you. You have to define what that means. Sometimes you're more masculine, especially more dominant. Again, you have to define what means to you and, but it, we're organic, we're analog. And we have to stop. I mean, I get labels are useful. Like, okay, you're kinky. I'm kinky. Great. We can have a conversation. But they only get you to the right city, the right neighborhood. It's much more nuanced and I love the nuance. I love the, the biggest thing I learned, you asked, when I hear someone describe themselves, it only gets me to the city. I still like, oh, I'm gonna define you that way.

Leah: 19:29

I It.

Max: 19:29

In the past I did define them. Oh, you said you're this, I define you as that. Now I'm like, okay, you've got me to the city. I still don't think, you know, let's, let's talk about life in that city.

Leah: 19:40

Right. How important is the definitions? How important is the, how you identify yourself versus simply being yourself? And, um, I, one of the things that I'm struck by the kink space is just how brave people are. I. I've noticed the bravery in myself move that dial has moved up since I became more comfortable having conversations and exploring those corners inside my own psyche that light up around taboo topics and you know, have things that kind of create a spark that I never thought it would be okay to admit. That's been really, really thrilling and it is vulnerable and it's brave. And I think that's a big contribution to what kinks provide the world. What other contributions do you think the kink community is making?

Max: 20:31

Well, building on what you just said, actually, um, when we're a kid, kids, we, we play. And somehow we get serious. But what is play really? But anything scientific, it's like, Hey, can I do this with you? Can you do this with me? And let's see how that goes. Um, this play idea is some kinksters call it play and I think it's something, it's a adult play. Sure. Um, but this is how we learn about the world. We play with ideas. We're not machines again, we're, we play with ideas. Oh, you wanna be dom, you wanna be sub, you wanna do this, you wanna do that? I wanna be, you see your, let's play with that idea and see how it goes. Oh, I didn't really like, I mean, for me, the reason I have the Big O people ask me and why touch, touch kink has a big O and partly is playing on touch. No, but the biggest thing for me is the circle. Because if you talk to somebody, you negotiate with somebody, you get that consent, you do that thing, and then you check in with them afterwards, you complete a circle. And that's doesn't have to be a good situation. Oh, I didn't really like that at all. Please never do that again. But it's a circle. It's experimental. It's wonderful play. And as adults, if we keep that circle going, we're lucky. We tried X, Y, and Z and it worked or didn't work, but we we're, we're, I'm caring about you as a human being. I have compassion for you. I'm trying to do this right. Um, I think it's healthy, it's healthy experimental stuff and that's the big thing for kink for me, you know? Uh, whereas if you don't, conversely like, I mean, that's it. It's not about like you slap someone on the bottom if they ask for, they want that and it's really part of their thing and you've negotiated. It's, it's great. I. You walk up to somebody on the street and do it, not so good. It's not about the action.

Willow: 22:17

It depends on where you're walking, what street, what city.

Max: 22:20

Exactly. That's really like a big thing. It's like, oh, but I could never do that. Like, yeah, you shouldn't do that with strangers and you should have a few conversations and organized consent, but there's no, thou shalt never do anything. There's just. Do with ethics, do it with compassion, do it with caring. This is another human being in front of you. And that's the other thing left. I'm left with.

Leah: 22:43

I, you make a good point. I think one of the things that people who aren't familiar with BDSM or kink, what they may not know is that there's a structure and a form to how people engage in this play. There's a beginning, a middle, and an end. There's sort of a standard be, yeah. Yes, that's

Willow: 23:04

And a prereq like prerequisite forms to fill out. Leah and I actually did a couple episodes on that for those of you who wanna check that out. Yeah.

Leah: 23:16

Yeah. Um, and so there's, you know, you start a scene or a play with negotiations and then you engage, you find out what worked, you might find out what didn't work, you see what's needed. You have some aftercare, and then you discuss, you know, what your takeaways were. And that's pretty standard, um, operation. And then people sort of, they, they do that a number of times with the same person. They start to build a relationship and then that may turn into a scene that's last even longer. Uh, and I think all of that's really fascinating. So for those of you who don't know, there's a certain kind of form that allows for more safety in the exploration and in the expansion of some of these edges, which is worth informing others about.

Max: 24:00

if I could interject, this is actually probably the thing that I, I've been to 30, 40 film festivals now. My film on the big screen and, uh, you know, hundreds of people watching and they always, there's a q and a afterwards. I. And, you know, invariably they're, you know, people putting up their hands and asking a few questions, and one of the ones that always gets to me is like, oh, it seems a bit complicated. And my answer is always this, maybe a little, but you don't understand the rewards. You don't understand like, okay, maybe you're not quite as manly as you wanna be because you're asking her if she likes it. Maybe you're not, whatever, but. It pays off. It pays off in ways you have no idea because maybe it's a little awkward in the beginning, but you form a connection and a trust that takes you to a place that you can't be. So yeah, I get it. Takes a little bit of extra time to go, I would like to do this with you. I wanna like, ooh, you know, and she, and well, she might just go

Leah: 25:03

Mm-hmm.

Max: 25:03

or he or whatever, you know, and, and you know, whatever. But that extra bit of time about explicitly saying what you're into. What you want and that extra little bit of time to find out, well actually I'm up to everything except for I'd rather you just do this. Not that cool. I'm happy with that, but not this. No problem. It makes this incredibly so, it might seem a bit complicated for some people, but I assure you learning the circle of just talking, being open-minded to people, um, letting them really have that chance, then getting that clear consent and doing it. It rewards you in ways you could not imagine. You'll have sex, you'll have relationships, you'll have experiences beyond what you would've had just by doing the whole i'm gonna make a bunch of assumptions about you and see how it goes.

Willow: 25:55

It's like that old adage, good fences make good neighbors. And when we know where our boundaries are, we have more room to explore the edges of those boundaries when we know that we can trust the other to hold those boundaries for us and with us. Um, then we were able to push up against those edges and push, push up against those boundaries within, which takes us deeper into that place inside of ourselves where we get to go a little bit further than we think we are available to or able to. Um. I think that that is one of the most beautiful things of any sexual sexual exploration where there's a conversation that happens beforehand where there's, you know, here, here's what I'm available for, here's what I'm not available for. And it's like, and then when we get right up against those boundaries and those edges and we push them just a little bit within that session that we set up with boundaries. It's sexy, it's hot. It's like, ooh, we're breaking some rules. We're pushing the boundaries a little bit, you know, doing things that we said, Ooh, we may not be able to do. So. It can create a lot more eros and a lot more arousal within your system because your brain is, um, expanding what, what it said it was able to expand into.

Leah: 27:16

Well, you're also leaning into part of the transgressive elements that are really hot, you know, and, and we tend to, I think in the vanilla world, deny that those things are really hot. That boundary pushing has a lot of sexual arousal oftentimes connected to it. And when you do it in a place that you can trust, um, which is why I think safe wordss are also such a great thing is being able to play with that and having communication that isn't filled with words and sentences to be able to play with those edges. The other thing I think just that I believe this could contribute to the vanilla world and I'm not using, uh, the word vanilla is if that's a bad thing. I think vanilla is delicious. I think we should all enjoy vanilla and add whatever toppings we want to it to make it even more interesting. Um. But here's where I think a part of that, the thing that the kink world could really bring value to the vanilla world is by having those conversations, people get to explore their desires. And desires are oftentimes for many of us, hard to name access, give words to be vulnerable with. It's scary, and for a lot of people, I think a lot of women in particular, we haven't been given permission to own those desires, express those desires, ask for those desires to be fulfilled, pursue those

Willow: 28:42

Even know what they are.

Leah: 28:43

Even know what they are. And so to be able to play with scenes or to have sort of this idea of play in, even if you would never explore kink, you know, or fetishes or you know, impact play or BDSM or any of those elements. To be able to have a co conversation with your lover where you feel safe and you are, you are provided with prompts that allow you to discover that such a huge gift. I think everyone would be having better sex and having more successful and fulfilling

Willow: 29:17

More intimacy. Yeah,

Leah: 29:19

Yeah.

Max: 29:21

I. I get myself in trouble sometimes with the kink community.'cause I actually wonder if kink is a thing.'cause everybody likes what they like. I mean, I

Willow: 29:29

yeah. Like what is it really? Yeah.

Max: 29:31

Everybody wants to label themselves. I'm gay, I'm straight, I'm kink, I'm this, I'm that. But again, I don't think we're anything. I think we just like what we, like,

Willow: 29:40

I love that perspective. Yes.

Max: 29:43

Boiled around to three things. Three things we like what we like. At that moment, we see ourselves, how we see ourselves at that moment, and we want what we want at that moment. That's all that matters. Maybe it's, and I'm submissive and I want humiliation. Maybe it's I am dominant and, uh, once you're whatever. And I'm one orga, I mean, but that's it. Stop fucking labeling. Excuse me. I dunno.

Willow: 30:08

Of course it's a,

Leah: 30:08

say whatever you want.

Max: 30:12

a little bit sad and I get the world we live in. It's a little bit more political and everybody wants to fall in politics, but sometimes we're losing ourselves on that.

Willow: 30:20

Mm-hmm.

Leah: 30:20

I,

Max: 30:21

you know, ES Esther Perel had a you, I'm sure you've read mating in captivity, but one of the best lines she had was something along the lines that humans will often be aroused by the same thing that they protest against during the day.

Willow: 30:35

Yeah, absolutely.

Max: 30:39

Not, you know, equal rights for women. I support feminism, I support now you're girl. You get down on your whatever,

Leah: 30:46

Yes.

Max: 30:48

you know, like whatever. Exactly. You know, like

Leah: 30:50

Dirty little slut. Yes.

Max: 30:52

Whatever. I mean, and the thing that people have the hardest problem with, and this is another message to my film, another message I would love people to realize. Don't feel bad about the fact that you're two people at least, you're probably more than that, but you can be a good mother, a good father, a PTA member, the the one that you know has the best record for picking their kid up at school. And you could be something completely. You'd be the dominatrix that likes to, you know, that's not a contradiction. Some people think it is, they're only gonna remember you from the most salacious bit. Oh my goodness. you find out the PTA leader is a dominatrix? Who the fuck, who the, who cares? Is she a good PTA, whatever? But right now we want the salacious bit and we don't recognize as humans. We have a public thing. I always say to people like, you know, in, in Canada and the state, would I go with someone's home I take off my shoes. Other places, you don't take off your shoes in certain parts of the world. After a good meal, you're supposed to burp out loud. You know, I'm a polite human being. If I'm in a place where at the meal I'm supposed to burp, there's places you're actually supposed to be fart out loud. A couple countries where you're literally after

Willow: 32:06

Which countries are those? I'm going, that's my kink.

Max: 32:13

T, but you know, I respect the culture. If I'm in a public situation, I'm supposed to bring an orange or bring an orange. I'm supposed to bring a bottle of wine or bring a bottle of wine. I'm supposed to, you know, that's your public cue. You know, if we're friends and we're more intimate, then we can do that part, but it's okay to be two people. And in fact, I think it's better

Leah: 32:33

Well,

Willow: 32:34

More than two. I think you said that at the beginning. Right? There's just, there's so many facets to every single person and

Max: 32:41

public and private is kind of

Willow: 32:42

and private. I love that. Yeah.

Max: 32:44

and private. Private can be, you know, and your public can be, you know, both of them kind of be infinite, but there's a public polite person that takes their shoes off and brings you a bottle of wine and says, thank you for inviting me to dinner. And there's private, so do like spanking maybe like we're having, oh, you don't want this, you know, whatever. You know, like, and you know, as friends you get to know the private person, you know, and, but you don't just'cause their private desires might be salacious or unusual you didn't, you don't wanna define them by that. You know? That's my

Willow: 33:18

I, I love it. I love that point. I, this is a little not on your point, but maybe it is. Why, why did you decide to name the documentary Touch Kink?

Max: 33:30

Um, touch was the play on the spectrum. Like I kept seeing everything as like this organic wave and, uh, you know, we like pleasure, but for better or for worse, whether we wanna admit it or not. Pain gives pleasure a bigger sense. The sadnesses give happiness a bigger sense. Like if you would, I mean, I've met a lot of rich people that had like everything given to them and they got everything could possibly imagined life. They're, they're depressed. Why?'cause they never suffered at all. They never had that baseline of like, having to struggle in life.

Willow: 34:06

They never became resilient and strong inside of themselves.

Max: 34:09

Well, it, I don't put it, you know what, I don't even, I don't even put it that, I think it's even more simple. Everything is a wave. There's the bottom of your wave. Your bottom of your wave is it's a boring day and I have everything top of your wave is like I'm meeting the prince now and doing whatever. This is a normal day that most for normal people is the bottom of your line. We need both sides. You know, I always try this, friends that get depressed or I promise like I know it sucks and I know you don't think you're gonna get past this, and I know you're feeling like, oh my God. There's only one solace I can give you is that this bottom is going to be the line. That you'll, there'll be a pleasure coming. There'll be something beautiful coming in your life that will be so amazing that this gave it the bottom. It, it's this just how we work. And it's biochemical. It's literally, I mean, this is not me, this is science. Your, your, your brain gets used to certain biochemical levels and when this is the worst thing that happens to you, that's the worst thing that happens to you. This is the be, and that's, that's your little thing. Whereas if it's bigger and more dynamic or you explore bigger and whatever, it's bigger. And just the way humans work and you know, you, we, I actually think personally that we are living an amazing world. Even the worst thing, a lot of the worst things that happen, well, okay, you lost your job, you got don't have any money. You gotta eat rice for a little while. My god, it's not really the end of the world. The end of the world if you're like getting bombed or some, something horrible like that. But a lot of things people think are like, oh my god, my boyfriend, girlfriend, whatever left me. I'm never, you know, comparatively speaking, I don't know. I just think that it's biochemical and we, we go up and down. So, uh, to make it more simple, it's, it's okay to feel what we feel and even the, the bad stuff leads to good stuff and we should. Want that wave that goes up and down.'cause that's how

Willow: 36:09

Yeah. And I think that, you know, bypassing the emotions that come with those down waves is actually, creates a resistance inside of your system and your life that, you know, attracts those down waves to you even more. So, I, I feel like what, what you're talking about is really like riding the waves, riding these, surfing these waves of, of life and the emotions that come with them, um, and how that you kind of, it, it grows you into a more, um, whole version of yourself or a more evolved version of yourself. And it's never ending. We get to ride these waves till the day we die.

Max: 36:51

we should and to, to recognize them. As something that will pass to recognize them is this isn't the first time and won't be the last.

Leah: 37:00

Right.

Max: 37:01

And you actually in, in some way, there's a reward to it. I know it's hard, like in that moment I feel that sometimes myself, I'm a little bit this way myself sometimes everybody like up and down. Um, but to recognize and go, okay, but to recognize, okay, this is, you know, not feeling great right now, but I know it will change.

Willow: 37:22

Yeah. And then there's something sweet about going into the feeling of it when you know behind that feeling that that, that it's not gonna last, that it's gonna shift and change, and you'll get through it.

Leah: 37:33

Well, if I can go, just go back to making a bridge with the whole identity part is, I think sometimes we over identify with our suffering or we over identify with our bliss and it's, I think more useful actually to just hold everything gently. I. And go. And this too will come again. And this too will come again. And this too will come again. The sadness and the grief will come again. The joy and the bliss will come again. And can we actually challenge ourselves to learn to be a lover of reality regardless of the state that we're in, is to go, you know, here in my pain and in my suffering is something to be present to, there's something in here for me. How can I not rush this experience but actually learn to love the reality of this experience? Much harder to do than when you have the opportunity to love the reality when you're at a peak state and things are feeling really great and really connected and you don't feel separate. I think from an non-dualistic perspective, the opportunity is to not feel the separation when you're actually in the bottom of the wave. I. When you're feeling a sense of loneliness, isolation, or suffering, to again, hold it gently and to realize that we're over identifying in that moment and we are becoming separate instead of realizing that we're actually not separate, that there's a spiritual opportunity in those moments to go. Um. I'm believing a story of separateness and isolation

Willow: 39:04

where's your kink in

Leah: 39:06

my perspective. Right, right.

Willow: 39:08

joy? Yeah. How are you getting off on that? Especially if it's a chronic thing that you do, like you must be enjoying it on some level. Yeah.

Max: 39:16

Well, you know, there are, there are people that have kinks that I do think are a little self-destructive, where they're, they're reliving particularly bad moments of their

Willow: 39:24

Mm-hmm.

Max: 39:25

I think I, I completely agree with what you're saying and I think that's like the, the gold standard of how people should think about it. The reality is we think the way we think. You asked me earlier about what I learned from kink and the biggest thing I learned is that I didn't know anything. That, everything that I thought about the world, that I thought, this is how men behave, this is how women behave, this is how the world works. And I was pretty sure of it was all bullshit.

Willow: 39:50

That's a big thing to learn,

Max: 39:53

It was to learn, it was a bit earth shattering actually, because I was fairly confident I had the world dialed. Um, you know, give that up in the end. It's your personality too, so like what you said is the, the gold standard. We should all go to that. But you know, depending on where we grew up and how we grew up and

Leah: 40:12

Well, our conditioning comes into fuck all that great philosophy up.

Willow: 40:17

We need to kink condition to uncondition.

Leah: 40:20

Yeah, yeah, yeah. All bets are off and we, and it's kind of an allusion to think we've got much control.

Willow: 40:28

Yeah. Yeah.

Leah: 40:29

but here's another interesting just to throw in another angle into all of this. It's just taking a look at our reaching for dopamine, it's like getting that hit of that feel good and, and really starting to take a look at how much we are burning ourselves out on dopamine. And that actually disrupts our resilience. It disrupts our overall satisfaction that we actually need to allow ourselves to pursue hard things and to delay instant gratification because then the payoff of when we do get to have a high has, um, it's a much more rewarding experience. There's a lot of things coming out right now about the chase of these dopamine hits and, and reaching for more and more and more instead of sort of being with the discipline. And in our culture now everything is at our fingertips and things are more and more convenient than ever before. I mean, I leave the house. Barely ever anymore, like pre COVID, I was out and about all the time. Now I have to actually remind myself, no, go

Willow: 41:33

Get out of the house.

Leah: 41:34

get the groceries, don't get them delivered. Um. So we're, there's an interesting thing around comfort that plays into all of this and our desire to wanna just stay comfortable. And I think this is where, sort of the interesting part, I think back to kink and playing with these Edges of sensation and these psychological corners that may feel a little more taboo and dark and transgressive can be very interesting. It's because much of it is uncomfortable and it's in that discomfort that there's an interesting payoff. There's an interesting reward. You're doing something that may be uncomfortable and hard for you, and some of that is in the devotional pursuit of someone else's pleasure. You know, as I play with an uncomfortable expression of my inner dom, like that doesn't feel supernatural to me right now, but I'm pushing myself into those edges because the reward of witnessing someone's submission to me is so beautific that I wanna get better at that archetype, even though I'm much more natural submissive than I a Dom. I wanna play in these playgrounds. Um, how has your journey been with your own level of discomfort and maybe difficult conversations or vulnerable conversations? Have you been present to that as you've sort of explored your own depths?

Max: 43:08

Um, I suppose, um, if I'm thinking about it, it's like I, I think I'm very slow at like, evolving, so it kind of like, I just asked a lot of questions, got all information.'cause when I did, it didn't really seem like that big of an evolution. It's, um, I've been very blessed in my life. I, I spent 18 years traveling the world, living 137 countries and I

Leah: 43:35

wait. You've lived in 137 countries. Holy. How old are you? How does woman even have time to live in that many?

Max: 43:43

old enough, old enough, but.

Leah: 43:45

Wow. Cool.

Max: 43:51

Different people have different ideas. What what's important. And it's not just like you might grow up in one culture and thou shall be like this and thou shall be like that. Um, but there's a lot of places where it ain't that way. They have completely different ideas. And when you start getting exposed that you realize that there is no fundamental truth. So I think being exposed to that variety, um, I just became really, really open-minded to everything and I'm uh, it just became sort of natural, you know. Getting that chance to explore. And again, why I love the kink community is that you meet someone, you connect with somebody that wants to connect with you, and you, you, you perform some sort of KY experiment. You know, let's try this. I never tried this, but with you, I'd like to maybe do some X if you wanna do some Y and let's see how that goes. And, you know,

Willow: 44:46

Yeah, the possibilities are really limitless. It's, it's incredible to hear people saying, oh, we have a boring sex life. I'm like, wow, there's so many things to play with and try and do.

Leah: 44:57

Well, I think that like really highlights that there's also is an, there's an artistry to all of this. There's a high art and a sense of creativity that I think, um, going outside of the box is really, really valuable. You know, and I think that when we see where art is suppressed, we have a culture that thrives less. When we see art that is explored, we have ideas and conversations, and we get exposed to things that that can change our minds and open our minds and open our hearts, and yeah, that's the world I wanna live in.

Willow: 45:30

Yeah, I mean, sexual.

Max: 45:31

broad, in a broader sense, this is why we, you need to support the arts. This is why we need to support diversity. Even the most conservative people in the world should see the beauty in that because by supporting the arts, by supporting diversity or supporting ideas, and you may not have known that you like X, Y, and Z. Never even heard about it. And some days somebody, one of the most amazing stories, and I wish I had this in my film, I met a couple, they were late thirties, and I met'em at a kink party and uh, had it in and talked to them. Turns out, um, they were, you know, high school sweethearts, you know, met at 16, got married, 18, divorced at 21. He was the quarterback, she was the cheerleader, all American kind of classic story. And fast forward all these years. He could never bring himself to say that he wanted to be submissive, that he wanted to sort of be submissive to her and more amazingly, she could never bring herself to say she wanted to be dominant to him. So they got divorced.

Willow: 46:37

Wow.

Max: 46:38

All these years later at a kink party, realizing they were perfect from each other, for each other. They could have just the bravery.

Willow: 46:45

an amazing story.

Max: 46:46

To be who they're, but neither of them at that moment had the words or felt comfortable enough, you know, Hey, I'm the quarterback, I'm the cheerleader. There's these ideas of what that is, and they didn't make it. And, but then they, you know, met each other many years later and they're happier now than they could ever be.

Willow: 47:05

That's amazing.

Max: 47:06

really. There wasn't the, there wa there wasn't the concepts. Hey, when I was a kid, polyamory didn't exist. I'd never heard that word. We cheated. You know, gender fluid or fluidity of like sexual, no, you're, you're straight. You're a even bio biased but weird. You can be gay. That's okay. I get gay, I get straight. But you know, everything had to be so like, we didn't have the words. You know, so in the end art and what you're doing and letting people just know these things exist, give them kind of like, there's this thing that, as I say, my, my big thing is just stop thinking about labeling yourself. Think about things in terms of more fluid and more like spectrums. Maybe you're 99% the biggest, baddest guy in the world, or this or that, but nothing is a hundred percent. Lindsay did this in the fifties. There's like 5% that are gay or 5% of the straight. Everybody else is pretty much in the middle if they're honest, but somehow we kind of didn't really follow that lesson. But, you know, this is how humans are. So like, just having the words and having the permission to talk about these things, and even knowing they exist. He, he, you know, this guy that he didn't know what it was,

Willow: 48:21

Right. Didn't know how to talk about it. Yeah. Uhhuh.

Max: 48:27

He wanted her to tell him what to do.

Willow: 48:30

Uhhuh.

Max: 48:30

He didn't have probably have the word submission or slave or whatever. He just like, I just really like it when she's kind of a bit bossy.

Willow: 48:38

Right, right, right. Were there, were there any other things that you left out of the documentary for any that you like, wish you could have kept in or, or you, or you left them out'cause there was a little, it was a little too edgy or anything juicy. You could tell us

Max: 48:54

Lots, lots, lots too many. Um, there's some, there's some footage of, uh, I, I met Faki Mussar who is the, the, the grandfather of body modification. And he had this amazing thing about energy and how the world is, and he's happy, like he's, he's passed now. I think I had the last interview with him, which is why I will let it go, let it into the world at some point. But just how he was very much about that. For him. It wasn't about. Male, female, this, that, it was all just energetic.

Leah: 49:21

I love that.

Max: 49:22

And he, he knew that from the fifties, you know, that it was just, he was, he knew what he was, he didn't, you know, now they probably call him queer, or this or that. Um, but it just, there wasn't words for it. It just, for him, he just says, I have an energy. This is my energy. And I, you know, and that was the words at the times, just. That I love to do and even that, like I, you know, my film showed at a few L-G-B-T-Q events and I'm always amazed when I see like everybody's now queer and I think it's right. It's like nobody says they're gay or straight anymore. Everybody's queer. And I think that's more honest because we're all kind of like, we like what we'd like and maybe it'll change if I meet the right guy. Maybe suddenly I'll find myself with a guy. Uh, never been, but I'm not saying no, you know, the pretty, you know, whatever, you know, it's like, but not being so stuck in all those kind of things. So I, I like this kind of queer thing about just being kind of, I'm just gonna be who I am when I am with who I am and see how it goes.

Willow: 50:16

Mm-hmm.

Leah: 50:16

How,

Max: 50:17

I think he was kind of the grandfather of that to some extent.

Leah: 50:20

can people watch the documentary? How can they find

Max: 50:22

Uh, touch kink.com. Uh, we'll take you to, it'll be on Apple and, uh, Amazon shortly as well. I prefer,'cause they're a indie film platform that frankly pays me more money than most, uh, you know, it's very expensive to make. Yeah, it's, uh, kin, K-I-N-E-M-A. But if you go to touch kink, touch kink.com, there's links to it.

Leah: 50:46

great.

Max: 50:47

There's a lot. The big, I mean, I was shocked. I got my sadly refusal letter from, uh, Sundance, uh, about six months ago. And I was shocked to find that 14,000 films were submitted to Sundance last

Willow: 51:01

Wow.

Max: 51:02

14,000 of which 25 were

Willow: 51:04

Wow.

Max: 51:06

I'm like 14, 14,000 films got made. I feel like, seems like a lot of work. And of those 25 films, you know, how many actually made money last year?

Leah: 51:14

Oh, how many? Five. Oh my God. Zero. Wow. That's sad.

Max: 51:20

Now, the new thing is like, and this is what I'm doing, my next project, is you gotta build your audience as you're going. I mean, I made a okay, I made some money because I collected email addresses from the

Willow: 51:32

Uh,

Max: 51:32

and the day it was released, I sent 20,000 people. Here it comes and, and a lot of people paid 20 bucks to see it the day that I released it. And if it wasn't for that, I would probably be in bankruptcy and I still might actually go to bankruptcy. But hey, uh,

Willow: 51:46

So all you listening out there, pay for the documentary, give them 20 bucks.

Leah: 51:51

Yeah. Now

Max: 51:54

is very like, and this is the new wave. You're an independent filmmaker. You need to be building. Unless, I mean, people spend more money, there's more money spent on promoting Hollywood films than there isn't making them. So unless you're gonna ready to spend a hundred million dollars on promoting it. You better you know? So you've gotta, like, if you can't put a bunch of money aside for promoting it, you need to make sure that your audience, and if you can't build an audience, if you can't get 20,000 people that say that they wanna see your film when it's done, it's signed up from newsletter or signed up for like, please let me know when your film's available. Don't make the

Willow: 52:28

Mm mm How'd you get into filmmaking to begin with?

Max: 52:34

It's funny, I, I started very early. I'm, I'm, I can't even really find out how old I am. Uh, I worked on the XFiles in Jump Street.

Willow: 52:41

Wow.

Max: 52:41

that as production. Yeah. I, uh, I owned a production company, uh, that we did film here. This thing film. It's like

Willow: 52:49

Real film.

Max: 52:50

film.

Leah: 52:50

Uh, yeah.

Max: 52:51

Yeah, I had a lab, I had a film lab. Um, so yeah, it was just, uh, 14 years old. I got a job as a photographer. I loved the camera. Then just natural evolution to film. I'm essentially a pretty, I know you'll be shocked, but I'm essentially a pretty shy guy. The camera was always my, um, I'm here. I camera. Well, I can speak to you now. Oh, I can talk to you because I'm, I'm, it's not just me. I'm, I've got a camera here and I, I, I guess I needed that. I, I, I still to this day, like I i'm talking to somebody without a camera, I feel a little bit more shy, but with a camera, it's like, well, I'm supposed to be here. Let me, so tell me what you had for breakfast yesterday, you know, what was the, what was your last sexual experience? You know, like I, I, I feel like a different person. So the, the camera was always my, like, passport to the world. Uh, so yeah, 18, 19, I ended up getting into post-production in Vancouver. Luckily the film industry became a big thing and we had Jump Street and X-Files and she got very lucky actually.

Willow: 53:50

hmm.

Leah: 53:50

Cool.

Max: 53:51

uh, yeah, the die was cast. I mainly worked in, um, behind the scenes, like, uh, production. I always wanted to be a director, but I always say never would be crazy enough to be, there's no, there's no money in being the architect, but the guy that built the building always gets paid. The architect can get paid, but more often than not, architects don't get

Willow: 54:08

Mm-hmm.

Max: 54:09

Uh, but the guy that did the plumbing always got paid so.

Leah: 54:13

I get the.

Willow: 54:15

Mm-hmm.

Leah: 54:16

You know, in, in closing, one of the things that I really loved about your film was the credits and how you gave us a peek into the people's lives who were featured on the film and where they are today. And, and where, what ended up happening, right? Like there was a little snippet on many of the leads and I was really sad and really stunned to hear about January's suicide. Um, it really struck a, a chord. I thought it was so tasteful, the tribute and the way that you honored her in her life. And, um, I just wanted to thank you for that. I thought it was a really beautiful and kind of startling end to the film.

Max: 55:02

I didn't wanna make it about that, you know? And.

Leah: 55:04

And you felt that, you felt that at the end that what we were celebrating by watching that film was her life. And there was honesty at the end by sharing what happened tastefully, and that was like a tribute to her. Um, and I really appreciated that the film wasn't about that.

Max: 55:23

Yeah, no, I, yeah, probably would've made a lot more money if I'd made it about that, but, uh, no, I was never gonna do that.

Leah: 55:28

Yeah. Yeah. Um. Thank you so much for being here

Willow: 55:33

Yeah, what a pleasure. What an honor. Great to hear. Hear the inside scoop of it all.

Leah: 55:40

Yeah,

Max: 55:40

kink.com. Check it out. Buy a ticket.

Willow: 55:43

yes, yes. Buy a ticket

Leah: 55:45

All right folks. That is, uh, not all. Please stay

Willow: 55:50

for the

Leah: 55:51

Willow and I will always dish it up.

Max: 55:55

Cool. I was like, say

Willow: 55:56

Nama.

Max: 55:57

namaste.

Willow: 55:58

Nama.

Leah: 56:02

That's right. That's right.

Willow: 56:05

Thank you, max.

Announcer: 56:07

Now our favorite part, the dish.

Willow: 56:11

Documentaries on kink, bring them on. Let's share it with the world. I loved, um, just chatting with Max. I thought he was, I love how he is so like humble. He is like, I'm just a normal guy. You know, he said that a few times. It was cute. And just what he kind of, you know, brought all his expertise and his life's work to, to, uh, showcase the possibilities in sexuality.

Leah: 56:38

Yeah, he didn't get into too much of it, but I felt, I wondered what his relationship with January.

Willow: 56:44

Mm,

Leah: 56:45

Was, it sounds like she was sort of his initiation into exploring this. Um, would've been fun to hear more about that, but I also wasn't sure if it was okay to ask

Willow: 56:55

wanna poke about his personal sex

Leah: 56:57

I guess so I guess, uh, normally I don't have a problem with

Willow: 57:01

I know. What, what happened? Yeah.

Leah: 57:03

kind of feel when people may be, you know, I, I guess there are certain questions that I ask that if people give me in those, it will lead me to ask more

Willow: 57:13

More personal

Leah: 57:13

And I didn't feel like I was always getting like as much.

Willow: 57:17

opening.

Leah: 57:18

Yeah.

Willow: 57:19

Yeah.

Leah: 57:19

sure. That's what I was responding to. Uh, one of the takeaways for me that I really liked was this message of like, this identifications that people. I think it really stuck on, and I almost feel like it's an ego identity. It's like a way to make them make ourselves special is if we can claim a label as

Willow: 57:40

I'm a, I'm a pro dom, or I'm a this, or I'm

Leah: 57:44

Yeah. or. I'm this gender or that gender, or I'm this, this is my sexuality and this isn't my sexuality. I can see why maybe it's important, you know, for being able to figure oneself out

Willow: 57:55

it could be important for like bringing a certain level of confidence forward inside of yourself, but then, then you can evolve beyond that and just be like, I'm just here. I'm just, this is what I'm into in this moment. Yeah. It was really great the way he broke that down. Like people are just people, they like what they like in the

Leah: 58:10

like what we like when we like it, and oh, by the way, permission to change our minds or to change our feelings, or to change our truth, you know, like it's not permanent. And I think it evolves as we get older. You know, we

Willow: 58:24

mature. Yeah.

Leah: 58:25

the things that I identified myself within my twenties are completely different than how I look at them in my forties, you

Willow: 58:32

Thank God. I mean, we shouldn't be thinking the same thing we were thinking in our teens as we are later, you

Leah: 58:38

Yeah, So, I guess it's just like a message of don't take yourself so seriously.

Willow: 58:43

seriously.

Leah: 58:45

gonna shift and change and, and including like, don't always take sex so seriously. Like, choose to be curious and lighthearted. And when you notice a judgment, you know, we've said it so many times on the show, we'll continue to say it. Like, be

Willow: 58:59

Get

Leah: 58:59

about that judgment. You know, get a, get a little deeper with that.

Willow: 59:03

Yeah. Yeah. And, and, and, you know, you know, sex Reimagined is, that's our brand and our name, and we're on a mission to help people reimagine what is possible inside of the sector of sexuality in life. It's not always, you know, what we grow up learning. And so I feel like this documentary is really a beautiful opportunity for all of us to just open our minds and our imagination to what else could be on the plate, even if we don't act it out. Leah's said this a a thousand times on the podcast, like you can, you can have a desire, you can have a scene or a scenario in your head and you can share it verbally. You can go that far and just express it, and that's gonna turn the arousal scale way up. But you don't have to act it out. Even though it's a desire, your mind gets turned on by, it doesn't mean you ever have to play it out in life. Maybe you know, you, you are a little bit curious about, gosh, what would that be like to be led around on a collar in public? You know, like there's a little curiosity there, but does it mean that you have to do it? No.

Leah: 1:00:15

You know, one of the things, you know how like sometimes uh, you drive by an accident and you don't wanna look, but you can't help but look, you know, it's kind of like me and how much I like true crime, you know, like I love hearing about serial killers, you know, it's like if I give other people nightmares, but it fascinates me. It's like, again, it's one of those examples of like. You don't wanna look what you wanna look, you can't not look. So the documentary was a little bit like that sometimes for me. Um, yeah, it was really interesting. So he went to a conference and one thing that's really cool about sort of these conferences is people dress up. So again, it kind of brings like this creative high theater thing to it all again. And I, and I was so, like, I didn't know how to relate to this one scene, which I also thought was so interesting. It makes me wanna like meet people who have a lot of get off in this because I don't, I don't quite understand it yet. It's like, huh. So it was a bunch of people pretending to be ponies. And they were like trotting, right? They were on their two legs and they were trotting, and they had these like little hooves on their, some of them had like hooves on their palms. So they had, you know, and you can't, for those of you who aren't watching but are listening, um, I'm kind of acting out how they were. Yeah. And they were all hooked. to each other, to other, they were galloping in a circle and their doms were, um, had their crops and was, you know, spanking them. to keep going. And if you've ever read The Beauty and the Beast Series by and Anne Rice, so it's like all Kinky beauty BDSM uh, at first it was, I've read all of her books. And then I got to the Beauty the Beast series and I, I couldn't go any further than like the first five chapters. I set it down for like four years and I recently read it.'cause now I've like built

Willow: 1:02:09

Yeah. You've built your capacity.

Leah: 1:02:11

yeah, yeah. I built my threshold and it was really interesting because she had a whole stable and it started to make me go, oh, here's the bridge. So I'd watched the documentary and I watched the scene with everyone pretending to be ponies and going, huh. Like, huh? Right. Like some of them have like butt plugs with the horse tail and everything and the whole nine yards. They're all dressed up. I'm like, I don't understand the get off in this. But then I read the Anne Rice book and she's talking about from the submissive and the dom what these ponies are doing and how they're actually drawing a carriage. And it really just, then I was like, oh,

Willow: 1:02:49

I don't get it. I'm not with

Leah: 1:02:50

I don't even know that I can explain it to you other than, oh my God, like there's a whole

Willow: 1:02:56

It clicked for you. Yeah.

Leah: 1:02:58

It clicked it. It helped me understand the why, even though I can't, like. Tell you the why.

Willow: 1:03:02

All articulate it.

Leah: 1:03:03

You have to read it. You have to watch other people. You have to observe it. This is what I think is so interesting is that this thing that makes us go, huh? Like I don't get it. And then you are exposed or you have a conversation or you read something and you're able to get into the heart and the mind of someone who does understand it and who has some get off in it. And even though I didn't have get off on it, once I read Ann Rice's words, it built a bridge. And I just wanna, I guess what my point in saying to all of this is help us build bridges people.

Willow: 1:03:36

Okay. Read. Read some Ann Rice and watch Touch Kink. Yo.

Leah: 1:03:41

watch, touch kink. And then let us know your thoughts. Have a beautiful

Willow: 1:03:45

love. I.

Announcer: 1:03:47

Thanks for tuning in. This episode was hosted by Tantric Sex Master Coach and positive psychology facilitator, Leah Piper, as well as by Chinese and Functional Medicine doctor and Taoist Taxology teacher, Dr. Willow Brown. Don't forget your comments, like subscribes and suggestions matter. Let's realize this new world together.