The Sex Reimagined Podcast

Elizabeth Hendrick: How a Japanese Dominatrix Freed Me from Internalized Homophobia | #129

• Leah Piper, Dr. Willow Brown, Elizabeth Hendrick • Season 3 • Episode 129

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Could the path to true self-love sometimes lead through unexpected darkness? In this riveting episode of Sex Reimagined Podcast, hosts Leah Piper and Dr. Willow Brown interview Elizabeth Hendrick, author of the memoir "Exodai," who shares her extraordinary journey from internalized homophobia to profound self-love through an intense two-year master-slave relationship with a Japanese dominatrix. This episode delves deep into BDSM dynamics, sexual identity, and the human capacity for transformation through unconventional means. Content note: This episode contains mature discussions about BDSM, dominatrix relationships, and explicit sexual themes.

LISTEN NOW TO DISCOVER:

  • How childhood experiences shaped Elizabeth's struggles with her lesbian identity
  • The distinction between being a submissive versus a masochist in BDSM relationships
  • What a master-slave dynamic actually entails in the context of consensual BDSM
  • The surprising spiritual elements that emerged during Elizabeth's journey
  • How hitting rock bottom in her submission ultimately catalyzed her self-love breakthrough
  • The role of past life regression therapy in her healing process
  • What healthy self-love looks like after extreme BDSM experiences

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🏆 WINNER in the 2024 NATIONAL INDIE EXCELLENCE AWARDS (Sexuality)

🥈 FINALIST in the 2024 NATIONAL INDIE EXCELLENCE AWARDS (LGBTQIA Non-Fiction)

🥈 FINALIST in the 2024 INTERNATIONAL BOOK AWARDS (LGBTQ+ Non-Fiction)


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Leah:

Hey there, this is Leah Piper, your Tantra expert. I'm with Dr. Willa Brown, your Taoist expert. And boy, do we have a ringer for you.

Willow:

Yeah, today we interviewed Elizabeth Hendrick, who was, I don't know, just one of the coolest interviews I feel like we've had to date. She published her debut work, Exodai is the name of the book, a shockingly honest memoir of love, obsession, and torture, in September, 2023. And it just, this book shares the astonishing true story of how she came to terms with her sexuality and learned to love herself, placing particular emphasis on her mentally and physically torturous relationship with a sadist Japanese dominatrix.

Leah:

Oh boy.

Willow:

you're going to love this interview and you're definitely going to want to read her book afterwards. You can get it on Amazon. It's Exodai. E X O D A I. It is sort of a conglomeration of a Japanese word, which I forget what that means, and ex, ex, something else. I can't remember. But you're going to dig it. It's really cool.

Leah:

It's fascinating. Boy, we go into the human psyche and it's tenacious desire to heal at all costs. And, uh, boy, does she go to some great lengths to discover self love, lengths that you likely have not thought of for yourself and, and,

Willow:

And you may not need.

Leah:

Yes, most of us probably will find other paths, but this is one that still deserves its, um, recognition because it worked for Elizabeth

Willow:

Very

Leah:

her story is very powerful. So please tune in, turn on,

Willow:

And fall in love with

Leah:

with Elizabeth.

Announcer:

Welcome to the Sex Reimagined Podcast, where sex is shame free and pleasure forward. Let's get into the show.

Leah:

Okay. Elizabeth Hendrick. Thank you so much. We're excited to hear your story and talk about your book and dive deep into this experience of yours. You are, um, talking to us today from Japan, so welcome. Konnichiwa.

Willow:

Wow,

Leah:

so let's just dive right in. You're in a relationship, um, with a Japanese dominatrix, correct?

Elizabeth:

So, um, well, not anymore, but the whole book, second half of the book is about that story of me being with a Japanese dominatrix. Um, the book, it's a true story. It's a memoir. And it basically charters the journey of me coming to terms with my sexuality. Um, and it goes right back to why I was not comfortable with my sexuality, because I was gay at school and I was ostracized. And it goes through the sort of learning process, consciously accepting it, subconsciously accepting it, or not accepting it. And, uh, culminates, the second half of the book is this relationship with this Japanese dominatrix, who's called Tomo. In the book, all through the book I've used pseudonyms, so Tomo is a pseudonym, but that's her name, and if I mention Tomo I'm talking about the Japanese dominatrix. So I had a relationship with her for two years, I was her slave, properly her private slave, and she reduced me to the absolute zero of submission. And that's basically where I found myself. and came out the other side of the void and,

Willow:

this is so exciting.

Elizabeth:

love myself. Yeah, it's a, it's a very powerful story, actually, of

Willow:

so curious, like, if you could, like, maybe describe to our audience what that means, like, to, to, who were you kind of before you got into this relationship and what does it mean to, to go down to absolute zero to be able to find yourself and, and who have you become afterwards?

Elizabeth:

lovely question. Um, I love it. We're jumping straight in here. It's fantastic. Um, so,

Willow:

We only have so much time with you, Elizabeth.

Elizabeth:

I know, I, It, basically, I was I had a wonderful childhood. Um, I'm British as you can hear. I was brought up in a very loving family with two brothers. Went, uh, went to private school, um, all girls school. And it was very clear by the age of ten that I pretty much was attracted to the other girls in my class. And at first the girls around me, my peers, just thought this is a bit strange, a bit peculiar. But nobody had a huge issue until puberty. And when I started, period, so, in an all girls school, and this is going back to the 1980s, I'm now 52, so 40 years ago, going through puberty, and white ca caucasian, um, It was very alien for a woman to love another woman, and when your period started, everybody in the class knew, and, uh, the question on the tip of everyone's tongue was, how do you feel about Alexandra now? And she was the girl that I fancied at the time. And I said, no change. And it was at that point, As if the class stood back en masse and said, Well, now that you're a woman, now that your boobs are performing, and, uh, boobs are coming, boobs are growing, and your periods have started, you're a woman, and you still fancy women. There's something wrong with you. It's like they stood back and said, You've got a problem. And I wasn't specifically bullied, but I was ostracized and made to feel awful, um, because everybody was naturally homophobic. Myself included, and at the time I was very Christian, I was brought up as a Christian, and as far as I could find, there was nothing in the Bible that would support, um, homosexuality, which for me was testament. To lesbianism. Of course, the Bible is misogynistic, so it doesn't even mention the word for women. Um, and, uh, same sex, uh, interest. So, I, I started to internalize a lot of this hatred and guilt and shame. And I think it hardwired my psyche to have a lack of self love. Now, uh, that then stayed with me as I went into adulthood. And in my twenties, I was having, you know, I was basically 100 percent lesbian. I wasn't even bisexual. And I was having terrible trouble with relationships and love. And every other area of my life was going fantastically, but the area of relationships and love, I hated myself deep down in my psyche. And I sat down with a priest when I was about age 27, and I'd moved to Japan already by then. And I sat down with this priest and he, uh, to say to him, is it okay to be gay before God? And fortunately for me, he was a very liberal minded priest. He'd been on various continents,

Willow:

the right priest.

Elizabeth:

Yeah, I, I, absolutely, because some people don't. And, and you're, you're very impressionable. I mean, I went there. almost with a, with a will to become a nun and live in chastity if, if the priest said to me, no, it's wrong to be gay. For me, that was the word of God being delivered. And he said, it's fine. God is the potter, you are the clay and he's got a great mission for you and embrace yourself. Now, he told me that when I was about 27, 28. And I was I was still, so, I accepted my sexuality at a conscious level and thought I was set to go, but I continued to have trouble in relationships and I couldn't understand why that was. But the reality of the situation was that although I had accepted it consciously, I was still hardwired subconsciously to hate myself. And it wasn't

Leah:

that that was internalized homophobia? I've heard that, you know, discussed a bit. Would you label it that way also?

Elizabeth:

yeah, I think it was internalized homophobia. Um, uh, because of the reaction of society at the time, and, um, also because of my own Christian beliefs. So I had internalized all this homophobia that was hardwired in my psyche, and, um, just talking to a priest and accepting it consciously didn't, didn't do the job that I needed to fully accept myself. And it wasn't until I, I was in a place of rock bottom, years later, uh, I was, I'd actually been on a reality TV show, Some, not something that everybody does, but I was on a reality TV show for entrepreneurs and I did very, very badly and I got thrown off the show, the show, but the lead entrepreneur is a bit like the Donald Trump, but it wasn't apprentice or anything like that. But the lead entrepreneur, the media mogul who was. running the show in Britain. He turned to me one day and he said, Elizabeth, maybe you've got, um, an emotional block and that's why you're not succeeding in business. And it's funny how you hear the worst things come from your sort of bitter enemies. Um, the biggest, the biggest truths come from your bitter enemies. And, um, it was one of the greatest truths. And after I got thrown off that reality TV show, I spent some time in reflection in the countryside in France. And, uh, read a very good book called The Road Less Traveled by Scott Peck, you might have come across it. Uh, really talks about love and grace and forgiveness and faith in the context of all religions. And, um, it really helped me and I basically realized when I was about thirty five years old, I realized I didn't love myself as a lesbian woman at a, at a cellular level. And That was the beginning of my journey of healing and learning self love. Um, and I think it was Woody Allen who said, 50 percent of success is showing up. And I think 50 percent of solving a problem is acknowledging that there's one in the first place. And, and so it was my acknowledgement, about age 35, 36, that started my journey, which was about 7 or 8 years of going through self healing. Um, which ended in two years of boot camp as Tommo's, as Tommo's slave, Tommo the Dominatrix. So this, this learning period, so I'd acknowledged it in about, you know, uh, let's see, 2007. I'd acknowledged that I didn't love myself as a lesbian woman at a deep, psychic, subconscious level. And then seven years later, I kind of came out the other side of this relationship. of this enslavement with this dominatrix. Now, um, Dr. Willow asked the question, what did absolute zero mean? Um,

Leah:

you answer that, can I, can I

Elizabeth:

Yeah, sure,

Leah:

a quick question about where, what you've shared so far? And I'm really curious what, you know, you said that your relationships weren't working or they were falling apart or something. I'm really kind of curious, what were the dynamics that were happening in your relationships that were causing you to feel like a failure? Okay. Could you share more details about that?

Elizabeth:

Yeah, first of all, I didn't really have very many relationships. Um, the, the first relationship I had with another lesbian was at university. And Interestingly, she went into that relationship thinking she was straight, and that she was just loving me back as a friend. Although of course my love was sexual, um, as well as as a friend. And my mine was more, uh, sex. It was sexual attraction where, where she didn't have that initially'cause she was loving me as a friend and accepting my outpouring of love. Um, and then after we'd been to kind of having this strange relationship where she accepted my love. She one day turned around to me and she said, I love you too. And the moment she said that I freaked out. And the reason why I freaked out was because I didn't love myself and I didn't think anybody else could love me, you see. I mean, and then it became a very turbulent, toxic relationship and she had to, she was on a, um, a university course that took her overseas in her second year to China. So we got separated. I mean, it was a very, very turbulent relationship and it, it

Leah:

What does freak out mean? Like when you say I freaked out, what did that look like? Right.

Elizabeth:

Got very confused, and I felt very uncomfortable. Um, and I almost stopped loving her, because she had turned to me and reciprocated my love. It was, I mean, a part of me was, maybe it was because the chase was over, that I'd become so used to. Now there was no chase, she turned around and said, I love you too. And I, I just, At first, gradually, my confusion and resistance bled away, but the relationship was still quite toxic, and I was very possessive, very jealous. We were keeping our relationship secret. Because she didn't want anybody to know we were gay. I mean, still back then, the university, this is 1992, 93. People's minds were still very narrow. If people hadn't gone out of the country, and again, it was a very white Caucasian, I was at Durham University in the north of England, it was a very white Caucasian society.

Willow:

Totally.

Elizabeth:

And built on Christian traditions, which essentially are homophobic, really.

Willow:

Were you aware

Elizabeth:

Hmm,

Willow:

at that time you said, um, were you aware at the time that you, You know, that the reason that you did sort of like freak out and not be able to receive her love back was because You didn't love yourself, or did you have to take some time to figure that

Elizabeth:

Oh, I had no idea. I had no idea what was going on. I, I, my self awareness has come in the last decade of my, of, of recent years. Um, at the time I couldn't have told you, oh, it's a lack of self love. Oh, I haven't accepted my sexuality. That, but that's what it was. I hadn't accepted my own sexuality. Um, I didn't think I deserved to be loved. I loathe my sexuality. Um, and the fact that she wanted to keep the relationship secret sort of exacerbated that. Yeah, this is, this is a no go area. Uh, we shouldn't be outdoor people with our love. You know, it should be hidden in closed corners. Um, so that, that was a bit debilitating, the relationship. But the other, the other, in terms of generally having toxic relationships going, going forward, I mean, what was happening really was I was falling for straight women. So in, once I started working in the UK, in London, and I was in financial services, what was tending to happen is that I would fall for straight women. And I used to blame the external and just say, well look, I love women the same way that men love women. They're beautiful, they're maternal. This was the one thing I really loved about straight women, is they're very maternal. And all the lesbians I was meeting were just, you know, they look like a guy.

Willow:

More hard and edgy. Mm hmm.

Elizabeth:

And I mean, that's not the case anymore now, but I love the soft, feminine, maternal, um,

Willow:

doesn't love the soft, feminine maternal? I mean, come on. It's nurturing. Like, put me right up next to that chest.

Elizabeth:

but, but the, what I now understand was that, um, I mean my current girlfriend, so I am in a relationship now, but it's a purely for linear relationship, and it's happened since I learned to love myself about six or seven years ago So we've been together for five years. She's not that kind of maternal beautiful elegant Angelina Jolie type figure. But she's not butch lesbian at all either, but but you know It it was me in my 20s Setting myself up to fail. So I was, my subconscious was sabotaging my relationships and causing me to fancy people that I was never going to have access to. Um, so again, and I had no idea

Willow:

Yeah.

Elizabeth:

the unavailable. So it was, it was all generated by the lack of self love. And once I, once I healed, my life just got so much better. I was so comfortable with myself and embraced my sexuality. So,

Willow:

big part of, I'm sure you did lots on your healing journey, but, you know, kind of fast forward to this moment of like this two year journey as a slave to this dominatrix, to Tomo, and being

Leah:

to hear about BDSM first.

Willow:

Yeah, like, yeah, how did you even find

Leah:

yeah, like before you meet a dominatrix, you usually have to discover that this thing exists, right? Right.

Elizabeth:

Right. the same time I was realizing as was a lesbian, when I was a child I was quite titillated by Criminal punishment and medieval English history. And, um, there was, there was this time when I was at school, and this is, actually this is the first chapter in this book. It talks about me being at school, age seven or eight, and having a history lesson with Mrs. Beckwith, and the history, and I discover that there's this chapter later on in the book called Crime and Punishment, and the book is called Medieval England, and I, whilst everyone else is reading out from chapter one, I'm looking through all the pictures of a man in the pillory, and a man on the racks, and a bad baker with his bread tied around his neck, and all tied up, and I was just really fascinated by this, and I had this little bit of an obsession, and I would, go into the school library in the lunch breaks and dig out all the history books looking for scenes of torture and punishment. I

Willow:

Mm hmm.

Elizabeth:

by it. And I, I never understood what it was. And then, um, when I was about eight, nine years old, I used to have these fantasies. When I'd go to bed, I'd have these bondage fantasies, like I'm tied to the table or something like this. And I would start to need the toilet. So I'd get out of bed, go to the bathroom. I've got nothing to urinate, and I, for years, I had no idea what was going on, but I was getting turned on, you

Willow:

You were turned on.

Leah:

Wow.

Elizabeth:

on, I had no idea, I was

Willow:

like, give me an orgasm.

Elizabeth:

first orgasm, actually, when I was, I don't know, I was only about thirteen, and, um, it, it was a complete accident. I had no idea what the concept was until I, I tried to tie myself up in my duvet, and, um, it was just so scintillating, and I was sort of contracting my muscles and stuff, and suddenly, oh my god. What on earth was that? I mean, it was like,

Willow:

Oh my gosh. So it was purely by accident. Wow.

Elizabeth:

that was

Leah:

I love that you were like trying to tie yourself up

Willow:

I love that you remember your first orgasm. Gosh.

Elizabeth:

and only, no.

Willow:

I do not.

Leah:

Yeah.

Elizabeth:

The best, best one ever.

Willow:

at like eight or nine or

Leah:

yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I remember taking a sheet and bringing it in between my

Willow:

similar to what Elizabeth kind of

Leah:

and when, and humping the sheet and just

Elizabeth:

Oh, awesome.

Leah:

this is fun.

Elizabeth:

Awesome. Yeah, right. It's instinctive, isn't it? I mean, I don't know, it's just that's what I wanted to do and it erupted in this great pleasure and there it was, I suddenly thought Ah, I see, that's what all the fuss is about It didn't, I mean, I didn't realize straight away I just worked it out, I thought Oh, that must be an orgasm, that's

Leah:

Like I never had a name for it until I was much older, but there is a feeling of this is forbidden. Don't get caught. Um, it's immensely pleasurable. There, I remember reading a lot of shame, you know, interwoven in all of it. It's like this irresistible urge. And it is, it's this biological, irresistible urge that the body is drawn to. So, all right. So you had this early conditioned spot, um, response. I would kind of call that like a, a core desire or a core erotic theme where you, you, this thing about bondage and this fascination with medieval torture. Um, all of that is really a beautiful setup. For the desire to have this more impact, more sensation as being the door into BDSM and all the ways that you can start to explore that. So what was your first experience into BDSM like?

Elizabeth:

So, I I always had fantasies about some kind of bondage and latex and rubber. Um, but I never explored when I was living in London. And in 1999, I was age 26, 27 I moved to Tokyo for the first time. It was a job opportunity. I went over there, um, as an investment advisor. That first job didn't work out, but being in Japan was brilliant, so I got myself another job as a headhunter. So most of the time in Japan I was a headhunter. And this was my first time in Japan. I then left and then came back eventually. Anyway, my first time I was living in Japan, I was at a lesbian party one night. And this is all in Chapter 4, this story I'm about to tell you. Um, I was at a lesbian, Chapter 4, I was, I was at a lesbian party with my, my friend from church. He was, uh, bisexual and we had gone to this lesbian party and she was very attracted to this Japanese woman who in my book is called Junko and she wanted to meet her. Now Junko wasn't somebody that I would normally be attracted to but my friend was so I went to introduce us to Junko and Junko was wearing a latex corset. And looking like she was the sexiest person at the party. It wasn't, it wasn't um, a bondage lesbian party. It was a regular lesbian party. But she had shown up in fetish gear. And was attracting a lot of people. Anyway, she was very interested in us. And she clicked straight away that I was into bondage. And invited me into her fold. And then she started inviting me to fetish parties. She organized some of these fetish parties. And sure enough, I, I, it was quite interesting actually. I, I, I, I, I, I. I almost let go of the gay scene altogether, where I'd never been very comfortable. And I took to the BDSM scene in Tokyo like a duck to water. And just felt

Leah:

could see you. Before you could see yourself it sounds like.

Elizabeth:

absolutely, you're quite right. She was a, she was a very, she was a Pisces. Very, very intuitive, very wise Japanese woman. Not like a lot of Japanese women actually, but very unique. I mean, we're still very good friends. Um, and she eventually, like, 10 or 15 years later, she was the person who introduced me to Tomo.

Willow:

Okay.

Elizabeth:

um, uh, kind of got us together, because Tomo was very Attracted to me. Actually, I met Tomo in Bali. That, again, is in the book. But it was Junko who kind of brought us together, um, and said you two would fit well together. Um, so my, but my first actual experience, going back to the question that Lear asked, um, the actual first BDSM experience I had is having got into the scene through Junko, a mutual friend who was, um, an Australian investment banker. Um, he invited me and a few other friends to a private S& M party at his house. And of course, he was an investment banker, so he had a very swanky mansion apartment. And he'd put latex sheets over all of the furniture. And there were only about 20 people at this party, and he had some of the top mistresses or dominatrices in town and some really hardcore submissive people. And I just sort of went along dressed up as a school girl because you had to go in fancy dress. You had to go in fetish gear and I didn't have anything. So I knocked together a school girl's outfit. I thought that's a bit kinky. And, um, next thing I know I'm, they've got me bent over. mark's lap on the sofa and they're saying, um, Elizabeth's been a very naughty girl. She should be punished. And again, this, this is in chapter eight or yeah, I think it's in chapter eight in my book, my first BDSM experience. Anyway, it was very interesting because everybody was checking in with me that I was consenting. Now consent is very important in BDSM. So every move that happened is like, you okay with this? I mean, they didn't speak it, but. They gave the space for me to say, you know, hold up your hand. And, I mean, there's this lovely Finnish girl called Astrid in my book and, um, she whispers into my ear. She's tying me up at this party and she whispers into my ear, If there's anything I do that you're not comfortable with, if you want to stop, just don't be embarrassed. just call it, call it out. Um, and all really compassionate, loving people. I've always said that in the, in the BDSM scene, I've always met very, very wise, enlightened, compassionate people. Um, and uh, anyway, so I was getting tied up and then eventually uh, they were saying we, we think we should let's whip Elizabeth. And they had this little crop whip. And I, at the time, I thought, well I'm not really into pain. I like bondage, but I don't really like pain. Pain doesn't turn me on. So, I think I'm going to abort now. That's what I thought. Just as I was about to abort, I'm lying on the sofa across Mark and someone else's lap. I looked up and in the corner of the room there's this Japanese lady. called Nozomi, who I hadn't really met before, and she just caught my eye, and she was a professional mistress, and she was looking on at me with total glee, and this aura was coming out of her, and she just looked like she was so happy that I was captive. And I said, you know what? She can whip me, but no one else. So, so,

Willow:

How fun. Ha

Elizabeth:

handed the whip to Nozomi, and so I, Nozomi calls me over, and I go along on my, shuffle on my knees, because my arms are all tied up behind my back. And, uh, they've ripped off my tartan schoolgirl skirt. Uh, I think I still had my knickers on, but they'd pulled the knickers back so my buttocks were bare. Anyway, and, uh, Nozomi set two with the horse crop on my buttocks. And it was, it was quite painful. And I thought, oh god, this is a bit embarrassing. I'm in a lot of pain here. I might have to ask her to stop. But, she She was enjoying herself so much, and I thought, Oh, well, if she's enjoying herself, then maybe I'll just hang on to this, because she's getting a lot of pleasure out of this, and I'd like to give her that pleasure. And so it became this kind of, uh, this vicious circle, that I was giving her pleasure, and because I was giving her pleasure, that gave me pleasure. So I kept enduring the pain, because the more I endured it, and the more I suffered, the happier she got. She seemed to be. And so I then said, well, wait a minute. Why don't you use, this is just a silly little crop whip. Why don't you use a proper whip? And so she was very thrilled. She went into her toolkit, because they all

Leah:

are pleasing her to no end.

Elizabeth:

I know absolutely, I

Willow:

first whipping, Elizabeth,

Elizabeth:

in with, jumped in with both feet, you...

Willow:

All the way, yeah.

Elizabeth:

And, uh, she got out this huge long snake whip, this huge, like at least a meter long, bull whip, leather braided bull whip. And then she brought me to the middle of the living room, which had become a playroom. And she just started whipping my buttocks and thighs all over. And there's this wonderful scene in the book where I describe very graphically what she does and how exhilarated I become. But my exhilaration is because of her exhilaration at seeing me suffer for her. And it was almost like a sort of hero worship. Yeah, it's just amazing. And, um, and at the end of that uh, I was just so euphoric and ecstatic that I thought I had been born again. I thought, I've discovered myself. I'm a submissive. I, I suffer for the pleasure of the lady. And, uh, it was really amazing. And that was my very first experience. And it wasn't with Tomo, who's the main dominatrix in the book. It was another, my first mistress was called Nozomi. And she features in the first half of the book. And she's kind of my initiation, if you will. Um, that took me to seventh heaven. It was

Willow:

Was your butt sore for, like, weeks after? Like, how did the, what was the aftermath of

Elizabeth:

it's, it's quite interesting, actually. Again, this, this scene, I'm having this discussion on the telephone with Astrid saying, are these scars gonna be here forever? Am I scarred forever? Um, and, and, actually, no. They all go whip scars, um, it's where the flesh is tight they heal pretty quickly. Where the flesh is a bit loose, Like around the buttocks. Takes a bit longer. So I had those scars for about three or four weeks, and then they were completely gone. Uh, no permanent, no permanent damage.

Willow:

Did you get, like, turned on when you would pay attention to the aftermath scars?

Elizabeth:

It wasn't, I, do you know, I, this is the weird thing. I never actually got turned on. I got turned on by being tied up, but for suffering pain, I never actually got turned on. So there's a subtle difference between a submissive and a masochist. So a masochist, actually gets turned on by pain. A submissive, uh, kind of gets turned on by being dominated, by accepting whatever the mistress will dish out. Um, but it, I, I, looking at my scars, it was, it was more this sort of feeling of heroism, that I had suffered for the lady, and it kind of sort of bled back to fancies as a child, you know, putting the lady on a pedestal. pedestal and worshipping her and wanted to suffer to save her and be her white knight. Um, again, because I was falling for the inaccessible. So by saving the woman, maybe I would get her attention. That was part of my, uh, program, modus operandi, I suppose, my paradigm that was going on in my head. Um, but yeah, so I was very proud, very proud.

Leah:

A lot of euphoria, a lot of, um, subspace, but it wasn't climatic. You didn't have a climax.

Elizabeth:

I did. Maybe Nozomi did, but I didn't. I didn't actually have, most of my S& M relationships with mistresses, um, except for one which was a British mistress and she was bisexual. All my Japanese mistresses, actually I would say all, there were three in total and two feature in my book. Um, it was all really about pain and love.

Leah:

Yeah.

Elizabeth:

and, suffering and love, and lots of delusion as well. But it, there isn't, there's, there's a bit of lesbian sex in my book, in the early part of the book, but there's not, there's not very much BDSM steamy kink, um, it, it's, It's not a romp. It's not a sexual romp, really. It's much more about love. I mean, some of the reviews that people have written about my book, I mean, it's in my, this is my true story, but some of the reviews that have been written, a lot of people talk about how this is not a BDSM romp. This is a story about love and sacrifice, delusion and redemption, because I come out the other side learning to love myself.

Willow:

Mm

Leah:

Okay, so fast forward, you're, you've been initiated into the scene, you're experiencing psychological benefit, you're having self realizations, and then you meet

Willow:

Tomo.

Leah:

And you take it to the next level. Were you a 24 hour slave?

Elizabeth:

Essentially, uh, 24/7, although there was an understanding that, you know, I had to work for a living, so she couldn't call me out of a meeting or anything like that. But it, all my social time, I was 24/7. So I, I would, if she needed me on a Sunday morning, I'd have to drop everything and go and deal with whatever she needed. Um, no, we didn't live together. Uh, she, she lived outside of Tokyo, so what, she would come and stay at my house a lot. But here's the thing, I had a very nice one bedroom apartment at the time. Um, but if she came and stayed, I would make the double bed for her. We wouldn't sleep together. I would sleep in the living room. And, um, she would, she would have the bedroom and I would just serve her whilst she was at my house. And I would, you know, clean the bedsheets before she came. Um, I had, tons of her stuff. I would put out her pajamas, always bring her, make sure her favorite food was in the house and everything so I could cook her a full English breakfast or whatever the next day. So basically we, we were not living together, but anytime she came to Tokyo, she stayed at my house and I was at her beck and call.

Leah:

Yeah, so tell us a little bit about the master slave dynamic, because I think a lot of, you know, people hear that, especially in the vanilla world, and they're like, what? Like, they have this imagery of, um, American slavery, right? And so it's like, they've got these pictures. We've got race dynamics. You've got, um, You know, pain, torture, um, a lot of objectification, um, subjugation. So can you tell us a little bit about what your experience of being in a master slave dynamic looked like, you know, uh, an average day?

Elizabeth:

It's interesting because looking back at it now, I just think I was an absolute lunatic to put myself in this relationship. But it was the lack of, lack of self love, you see, and I thought I should be punished at a subconscious level. But the, the way it looked was that I, so in the beginning, Tomo and I met as friends. And then I kind of became what she called a like a handmaiden japanese it was Shimo B, or I've forgotten the word now, Shimo Shimo, which means handmade. And so she was still loving me as a friend, but I became her handmade. But when I transitioned to slave and she took me a hundred percent as her slave, everything became very different. And whilst we, we had had some. torture sessions. In Japan you can book a hotel for two hours and some of them are themed with BDSM furniture. And there was a BDSM themed love hotel very near to where I lived. It was a ten minute walk. Um, so we would go there to have a session. And, uh, she would do different kinds of torture, I don't know, during the course of those, those two or three hours. so when we had a session, what would happen is that she would do something, and I would suffer, and then she would show me this maternal affection and appreciation and thanks and gratitude that I had suffered for her. And when I became her slave a hundred percent, all of that maternal affection disappeared. And I had mistakenly thought that that was her love for me as the dominatrix, but it wasn't. It was her love for me as a friend. And the Japanese are very departmentalized in their thinking. So when she took me on a hundred percent as her private slave, she jettisoned all the friendship feelings she had for them, for me, and set that aside and just went 100 percent I am her slave. So, I was absolutely degraded. I wasn't even worth, so after a while I couldn't even kiss her feet, I had to kiss the strut of her boot, or the underside of her shoe. And, um, I everything, she had to go first, I'd had to do everything for her, um, but It wasn't so much that we were role playing 24/7. It kind of became very real. And I was really subjugated. She properly mentally and physically dominated me. But the mental domination and the mental torture I found much more insufferable. The physical torture, I was actually quite strong for, but the mental torture was very difficult.

Willow:

How did, I mean, this went on for two years. Like, how did, how was this shifting your relationship to you loving yourself? Like, I'm just

Elizabeth:

question. Um, so, so I think probably I should say that for the first year of the relationship, we were in this shimobe phase, where I was her handmaid, and actually things were going quite nicely. She left me in want a lot, because going along in all of this, I started to develop an addiction to torture. Yeah. And that became my quintessential expression of love, was suffering pain for her. And, so I guess for the first year, she, I was her shim, her handmaid, her shimobe. And, she was, in a, she was struggling to decide whether to take me fully as, her slave, or fully as her friend. Because the half and half arrangement wasn't really working for her. Because she thought there were things that she would do to me as a slave that she would never do to her friends. And, um, she was actually at the point where she was, wanted to go back and say let's just be friends. But I really wanted to be her slave, because I didn't know what I was lifting myself in for. Anyway, we eventually graduated. So, so this, the second half, so for about one year, we were properly slave and master. And, I guess for the first six months, it was just really hard core training, and me realizing, step by step, uh, that she's abandoned any kind of show of love. Um, she's not giving me any affection. There's no emotional support. And all of that had come in the first year because she loved me as a friend. She'd taken that all away. So, I was just getting no reciprocation for my efforts, no recognition, I mean, um, for my efforts. And it was becoming increasingly difficult. And I was, actually, after about 18 months, I was nearly going to split up with her. Um, and I had gone home to England with her permission. Um, she never would have said, no, you can't go to England, but still, I had to get her permission. Um, I'd gone home to England, and this was in the Christmas of 2013, and I'd gone home to England. for three weeks for Christmas. And I, and this story again is in my book, I had a spiritual guru in London who was a really intuitive, psychic man, like Gandalf the Wizard. He was a really hocus pocus type of guy, did a lot of breath work uh, treatment with me and everything. Really beautiful, beautiful spiritual guru. Anyway, I went to see him. And he used to have, um, cards that he consulted to reach the Holy One. Not occult cards, but spiritual cards of some way, shape, some substance. I, we put the question, I said to him, I really feel like I should split up with Tomo. Stop being her slave and just be her friend. And He put the question to the Holy One, and he, he agreed with me. He said, yes, I think you've reached the zenith. I think it's probably better to back out of this arrangement. And he consulted his cards. And the cards basically said that there was an incredible opportunity for spiritual growth and soul development if I stayed in the relationship. And It's amazing, I mean I'm still unpacking some of this, even now as I'm talking to you. It was right, it was correct. Because, I was taken to such a low Absolute zero of submission, that all of my crutches and all of my resources and everything was stripped free from me. Um, I had even just lost a huge deal at work and I was going to get fired and everything. I was at total rock bottom. And I couldn't have reached that place without being in this relationship, being this slave to this mistress. And it was from this absolute zero that new shoots started to come grow, had the space to start to grow because they weren't suffocated by all the crutches of life that we Alcohol, sugar, church. Church isn't always a crutch, but you know. Um, addictions. All these crutches that we have.

Leah:

can be. Yeah.

Elizabeth:

And, and once those were all stripped from me, and my self esteem and everything, I was able to reach deep inside me and start to pull out the inner child and love and heal that inner child now I was so I so I had that spiritual guru in London who advised me so I thought well, okay Well, I'll stick with it for a few more months and just kind of play it day by day And, um, then I also did a past life regression, and this I did in about, I did in March or April of 2014. And I don't, I don't know what to say about past lives and life after death and everything. I mean, it's, it's a fascinating subject, and I've seen so many stories about Indian reincarnations and stuff, and kids that knew people. That they used to live with and stuff and born into a new body. I mean it all fascinates, fascinates me. But I, I just thought well, let's just go into this with an open mind. It was actually the conductor of my choir who recommended this form of therapy. Anyway, I went to this bilingual Japanese lady called Mica who was a regression therapist. And she took me on this I think I went to see her three sessions. On the third session we did the therapy, the actual therapy where she hypnotized me and took me back in time to before I was born and then into whatever, apparently your soul draws you to the life that you need to reckon with. Um, anyway, turns out I was a mentally disabled man in the 1500s somewhere in Eastern Europe and I, in a little village, because I was mentally disabled, the villagers got me to light the pyre under the stake at which witches would be burned. And, in this previous life, Tomo was apparently one of these witches, and I burnt, I set fire to her, and really enjoyed it, and got a lot of exhilaration out of it. Now, that was the story that came to me. Now, whether it was something my mind imagined or fabricated,

Leah:

Sure.

Elizabeth:

maybe it really did, maybe I really did have a past life with this soul, and that existed. But, whether or not it exactly, absolutely happened in the past or not, the emotional reaction I had to reliving that was so powerful and so releasing that I think that was one of the major turning points in my life that started me on this big journey to self healing. I mean, I was already on the journey, but this was a big, big steep rise on that journey towards self love. Um, and I let,

Leah:

some meaning. And like

Elizabeth:

it also,

Leah:

sense of this dynamic that you are in.

Elizabeth:

It made me realize that I was one of her assailants in a previous life and it almost like leveled, this is why she's treating me so badly now and now the karma has come back. I mean that was, that was one take on the situation which made me find her insufferable behavior so much more palatable. Once I thought, well I was her assailant once, I tortured her once, now she's torturing me. Great. Excellent. You know, karma's balancing. It's, it's fascinating, but without a doubt, after that regression, I, and that was the sole journey and sole learning that I think this spiritual guru in London had seen in his cards. And, um, and I did that. And then, um, you know, there was other things I had another therapist, um, Who I used to call into she lived in Dubai because I was in Dubai for five years as well during in the middle in the middle of my two times in Tokyo and being an entrepreneur and on reality tv show I'd lived in Dubai for five years and I had a very good spiritual guru there as well. So I I was um getting a lot of help from people mostly not not proper registered psychiatrists, but very spiritually mature enlightened gurus as I call them. And they really helped me and and I think the the the culminating point What started to happen in the last six months of this relationship with Tomo after I'd done this regression therapy was I was starting to find that we were no longer in sync now what I mean by that is You asked the question about 24/7. She would expect me to drop everything and run across town to serve her. And what was very strange is that I still had a social diary, and I still did things with my friends. And it was strange, it's like, any time she called me, I happened to be free. Whereas, after I'd done this regression and started to love myself, we started to clash. Our diaries started to clash. We weren't in sync anymore. And so I was having to turn down my phone. Yeah, it was fascinating. It was a very, very, very spiritual experience, the whole thing. I mean, I was vibrating on this very high level spiritually throughout the whole relationship. And, um, these, these things were happening and I started to realize it was my soul calling out, this is not right, you, because I was starting to love myself. I was starting to resent her treatment of me and her, what had all become mental torture by then. And finally, I realized I need to get out of this relationship. Um, uh, I mean, there was one occasion where I was at the, I was, really, I, There was a lot of delusion. And I had convinced myself that I was going to save Tomo from her inner demons. And this was part of the reason why I stayed with her in the last few months. I thought that I had to suffer the slings and arrows of her outrageous torture in order to take the burden of suffering off her so that she could then break down and free her demons. And it was delusion because I was chaining myself to this toxic relationship and I was telling, selling myself this story to keep in chain in the relationship.

Leah:

Do you, do you look back and, and, and think of her now and believe that she did have that, that she still needs that? Or do you feel like you have a different perspective?

Elizabeth:

I, I think we all have internal demons, but I think that you can only save yourself. You can help people, give them some hints, but you can't actually save other people. And, um, I had convinced myself I could save her. Um, I think I was tremendously helpful to her, but I, I couldn't save her. And it wasn't, I was, I was pressing for this final showdown session where she would be whipping me and she would suddenly break down in tears and I would be there at hand to comfort her and again saving the damsel in distress kind of an obsession.

Leah:

The savior, yeah.

Elizabeth:

I wanted to be her savior and it was it was impossible and I just eventually realized I was deluding myself and the self love started to, uh, point me in a different direction. Um, which meant, you know, you've got to get out of this relationship because you love yourself now and you shouldn't be punished anymore.

Willow:

So it was like all that torture and enslavement was really was really matching your belief about yourself and your and the frequency and the vibration that you carried inside of you and to really be met. I mean, that's what we all truly want, right, is to be met. That's why we do attract people. toxic relationships and we do get into things that are like, Oh, that must be what love is. Cause that's what I've always known it was. That's what my parents exemplified or whatever. And so, um, so to, to actually really be met in that low, low, low place was the thing that you needed to really start to understand what loving yourself truly was. I'm curious if there was like a moment with her where you were like in that slave role with her, like an actual moment or if it was more of a gradual thing and you know, this past life regression was part of the turning point for sure. But was there a moment where you were just like wait a second like awake to the fact that you do love yourself actually

Elizabeth:

I think there was, it was gradual after the regression therapy, it was gradual, but there were a couple of Pointers. I, there was one occasion where she called me to do a job, uh, at Sunday lunchtime and I had arranged to meet my best friend for lunch and I had to cancel the lunch and I was just crying out against it. I say, you can't, what are you doing? You can't. You can't do this. This is terrible. You shouldn't be doing this. And it, I, I just started to feel these things very strongly. And then, um, the, the book, the last chapter of the book ends with me, um, so, so I was hoping to have this session with her. And there was this occasion where she asked me to meet her at 10pm at Alpha Inn. Now Alpha Inn was the name of the S& M Love Hotel in Tokyo, and she asked me to, out of the blue one day, she asked me to meet her there. And that could, from my point of view, from my perspective at the time, who's addicted to torture, totally 100 percent obsessed, um, really struggling to get my Hollywood ending, this breakdown when I save her from her demons. I, I thought she was calling me to a session at the hotel. So, I'd actually got to a point where I thought I was going to exorcise her demon, as in exorcism. And I literally packed in my bag that night to go and meet her. I stole some holy water from the church. I painted a red crucifix on my chest. I had a bible. And I literally thought I was going that night to exorcise demons in this S& M Love Hotel. And that's what I thought I was doing. And I went and I got to the hotel, and it's a very exciting scene in the book, I hope, I hope I don't spoil it for anyone by telling them this, but basically, um, she was already there with an, a client, she's a professional mistress. And she just wanted me to pick up her bags and take them home. And then she, she was gonna come with, she just wanted me to meet her there and carry her stuff for her. And I was just, I'd built up so much, the psychological build up and thinking I was gonna be properly tortured. I, I used to call it my, uh, my DEFCON. You know, you have DEFCON states for whether US is ready to go to war or not. And DEFCON, DEFCON 1 means you're at war. DEFCON 2 means everything is ready to go to war. I was at DEFCON. Con 2. Properly charged in my whole psyche to get tortured and exorcise demons with my Bible and my crucifix painted on my chest. I tell you, I was totally deluded. I mean, I said I was a lunatic at the time. And anyway, it didn't happen. And I was, I just, all of my castles came crashing down. And I sat there, we sat there in the taxi going back to my house and I just thought, This is ridiculous. I, I, what, what, on earth is going on. I was just crying out. And I think that was probably one of the, one of the other sort of key moments, pressure points where I just thought this is, this is not, this is not right. This is, something's wrong here. Um, this,

Leah:

Was that when you, you know,

Elizabeth:

I, yeah, I, I then, I then called it a day, I think, about a month later after that, and I told her. But I, I recognized that she had taught me to love myself, and that's why, that was my motivation for leaving her. Um. And so I made her a beautiful gift. I made her a mosaic of a lotus flower. And, uh, because I want to say thank you. Thank you for teaching me to love myself. But because I love myself, I can't be your slave anymore. So I'm leaving you, but thank you. Um, and, and, I mean, you know, I think she was devastated, uh, for about ten minutes. I was devastated.

Leah:

Jesus!

Elizabeth:

or a month or two.

Willow:

I'm so curious, Elizabeth, do you, do you think or know if she knew that this was the pathway for you to self love, like was she aware of what she was doing?

Elizabeth:

Well, she was a very intuitive woman. She could read me like a book. And she knew, she knew when she called me to meet her at that hotel at 10pm that night. She knew that I, that she was teasing. She knew it was a huge tease to make me think there was going to be a session when there wasn't. She knew exactly what she was doing. I couldn't see that at the time. Uh, but looking back, she Did

Leah:

she have the psychological finesse to know that the intention of this journey between you and her was about breaking you down so that you could reach that place of self of discovery, of self realization, of finding that self love, and her path forward was to break you down so thoroughly and so headfuck you that you could reach that? Or was that not the intentional game that was being played? This is just the surprise or this was the alchemical thing that just shows up, was there an understanding that this potential was here?

Elizabeth:

I think there's a bit of both. I, I think, on a very deep level, that she probably couldn't even verbalise or think herself, but something was driving her, on a deep psychological level, to know this is what Elizabeth needs, and I'm here to deliver.

Willow:

Having playing something out, and then your bodies were like being the, clay, as

Elizabeth:

She had a, because I just remember her once telling me that she, she was talking about some of her previous male private slaves. And I remember her telling me once that one of her slaves had left her because she fixed him. And I think it was the same kind of thing and you know if she's she's out there If she talks about me out there. She probably says she left me because I cured her that's probably what she would say and and I would have no qualms with that. I mean we I still see her we we for about two years after the relationship. I I was so she she got over me very quickly I'm sure I took two years to get over it because I still loved her and I was really I mean I was really screwed up. But but I loved myself, but No, no, I loved her. It was an infatuation and but it was, it was actually proper love. It was, I'd like to call it unconditional love because I did try to love her whatever. And unconditional love takes effort and commitment. And it wasn't happening naturally but I constantly, and this is one of the reasons why I saved myself, is because the situation was so toxic that it had every opportunity to go badly for me and for me to be in a much worse position than I was before going into a relationship. So there's, in any codependent relationship, you have an equal opportunity to grow or to decline. And I, I think what determines whether you grow or whether you decline is your approach to every situation. And if you apply Love, forgiveness, and honesty. To the situation, you will grow. It will come back to you. Love, honesty, forgiveness will always, in the long term, work for the benefit.

Leah:

right?

Elizabeth:

Whereas if you apply, uh, hatred, jealousy, possessiveness, and anger, then you have the

Leah:

are multipliers.

Elizabeth:

To decline. Yeah, exactly. So it's a downward spiral. So, so I was just, I just constantly, and this is, you see, the, it's the yin and yang of my Christianity. So at the time I was with Tomo I was still very much a Christian. And the irony is, is it's my own Christianity and my belief, my adolescent naive beliefs that made me loathe myself. But it was that very same faith that dug me out of myself and taking the noble path.

Leah:

in

Willow:

God, I know.

Leah:

know, like

Willow:

is so fascinating, Elizabeth. I can't wait to read your book and have you back on the show,

Elizabeth:

Oh, please do, yeah. I'd love to have more questions from once you've read the book.

Willow:

Well, I am curious in sort of, uh, wrapping up our conversation today, because I, we could talk for a whole other hour easily. Um, You know, what is your, your practice of self love look like today? Where are you at with it?

Elizabeth:

Well, I, I, a lot of the healing process after I, uh, split up with Tomo, um, a lot of the healing process involved, um, hiking in the Japanese mountains.

Willow:

Japan is so phenomenal. Oh my

Elizabeth:

it's just amazing. And everything is so well organized and it's so safe. I mean, you're more in, you're more in danger. So you, there's this, uh, story going around the internet at the moment. The bear versus the man. What would the woman be more afraid of bumping into in the woods? And all the women are saying the bear. In Japan, you, sorry, all of the women are saying they'd be more afraid of the man than the bear. But in Japan, it's the other way around. You would actually be more afraid of the bear, I think. Because we're, everything's so safe. Everyone's so well behaved.

Willow:

Mm

Elizabeth:

But the mountains are just beautiful and they're very, they keep their hiking courses fresh. So they're constantly trodden out and they're very well signposted. So that, that's one of the healing things. I've also always done yoga. I do Bikram yoga, which is the hot yoga. Um, of course, Bikram Chalaji was, uh, was, um, is in he's a fugitive in Mexico, I think, now, because of sexual harassment. But, uh, his yoga system, nonetheless, still works extremely well, and, uh, people still practice it. It's the 26 positions in, in hot yoga.

Leah:

It's a little like torture, too

Willow:

Yeah!

Elizabeth:

It, well, it is, it is, uh, it is actually a kind of torture. Um, torture can, well, self discipline, um, uh, self discipline and, um, mortification of the flesh are very, very good for the soul and for spiritual growth. Um, and I, I think, you know, the, this, I often feel it's very sad to keep healthy. We have to do certain things like give up wine or for a month, I was give up alcohol in January, you know, and it's cut back. It's hard. It's, you know, I

Leah:

things makes you more resilient

Elizabeth:

does it exactly, exactly. So, um, but the, the, But the, the, the things I'm doing now, self love, is, um, just looking after myself, eating healthily, uh, indulging from time to time. I mean, I still have vices like coffee, um, occasionally I give up coffee for fun, but it's not fun, so I don't do it very often.

Leah:

Have you given up being tortured or BDSM?

Elizabeth:

yeah, so, uh, that's a very good question. Um, so, The origin of my interest in BDSM was the love of bondage, and I still absolutely love bondage. I still go to bondage parties. I still put on my latex, and if there's an opportunity to be tied up, well, sure, bring it on. But, um, I don't I wouldn't put myself into that position where I have someone properly torturing me with, with a whip. I just don't need to do it. I just, it doesn't, doesn't excite me and I don't need to go there again. Um, I'll do small things just for fun to bring pleasure to the woman, but I'm not going to be anyone's private slave anymore. And the relationship that I'm now in, which has been going on for five years and we live together, and she's Japanese. But she's completely vanilla. Um, we're just, we're just two lesbians together. Really, really

Leah:

you identify as a submissive still?

Elizabeth:

Not really, no. I've kind of buried that side of me. And I'm 52 now, to be honest. Haven't, take, took quite a lot of energy. I mean, I was 40, 41 when I was serving Tomo, and I couldn't do it now. I would exhaust myself. I was very fit back, I mean, I'm still quite fit now, but when I was 40, I was very, very fit for my age. Um, and I had to be, I had to have a lot of energy to serve this woman. She was high octane. I mean, gosh, she was a flippity jittit, flippity jittit. Flippity, what's the word? Flippity

Willow:

I've never heard that word. Oh,

Elizabeth:

it's in the Sound of Music, the nuns, where they're singing about how do you solve a problem with Maria. A flippity digit, a will o the wisp, a clown, that's what they, flippity digit, a will o the wisp, a clown. How do you solve a problem like Maria?

Leah:

My mom's

Elizabeth:

favorite movie. How do you get the cloud and pin it down? She was one of those women. Anyway, Maria

Leah:

what a fascinating story. It's really cool to hear your journey of really having a cathartic, a truly cathartic experience that's outside of way outside the box. Um, that you had enough, you know, self awareness and wherewithal to make sure that you came out of this the other side. Better than worse. Um, and, and, and that's the best we can hope for whenever we engage with anybody new, is that they leave us better than the way they found us. And it sounds like Tomo did that for you.

Elizabeth:

Yeah. Yeah, it's an amazing, amazing story, and I'm so glad I wrote about it and wrapped it up in a book. Um, a lot of people have been finding it very helpful. I had one disabled man write on one of my YouTubes about my book, my YouTube videos about my book. He wrote, um, I'm midway through your amazing book, I'm a cross dresser, I'm a disabled man and cross dresser, and your book is helping me unpeel layers about who I think I am. So I mean that, you know, just for that, it's worth writing the book.

Willow:

Hold up your book again, Elizabeth.

Elizabeth:

Oh yeah, yeah, it's helping people. Exodai, you can find it on Amazon, it's in all Amazon markets, global Amazon markets. You'd probably need to type in Exodai Hendrick for it to come up in search. I'm not, I haven't sold a million copies yet, so it's not, if you just type in Exodai, my book probably won't come up. So you need to type in my surname as well, Hendrick.

Willow:

perfect.

Leah:

Great. Well, I'm sure we're gonna get lots of questions from this episodes. We'll keep on going deeper. We'll have you back and thank you so much.

Elizabeth:

Sure, wonderful. Well, uh, Dr. Willow, Leah. Thank you very much for having me. It's been thrilled. You're a lovely interviewer. It's really nice to have people listening hard. As I tell, I talk too much. I'm sorry about that. Look,

Willow:

No, it's great. We're captivated the whole time.

Leah:

a great storyteller and,

Elizabeth:

Bless you.

Leah:

you'll capture so many minds and, and I know there's gonna be so much curiosity and, and, uh, hearts too. So thank you.

Elizabeth:

you very much for having me. Bless you both.

Leah:

All right, everybody stay tuned. You know what's next. It's Dr. Willow and Liam. We got a dish about it. So get a cup of tea and we'll see you soon. Love, love, love.

Announcer:

Now, our favorite part, the dish.

Leah:

Well, well, master slave, dish a dee doo dah, Willow, what did you

Willow:

I felt like that was one of the most fascinating interviews we've done yet. I mean, I just was captivated, really, truly, like, to have Elizabeth telling her story, not to mention just, you know, her British accent is captivating

Leah:

Right. Right.

Willow:

just her whole journey through, like, realizing she's, she's lesbian, she loves women, like. All the, the self loathing, the shame, the, the sense of low self worth that she carried for so many of her years and like, what, it really speaks to the power of, of that. Uh, Dom and sub the BDSM realm, it really speaks to the power of like, that was the only way that she was ever going to find her way to loving herself was to, yeah, was to actually be like in that slave relationship with her dom at such a degrading level. Because that's how low her love for herself was and she needed to be met there. She needed to be witnessed in that place and seen from that viewpoint so that she could actually be like, hang on.

Leah:

To strip it all

Willow:

Yes. And I,

Leah:

like as low and as horrible, like that reflection, not just being internalized, but having it be externalized. And what's fascinating is that the psyche was able to wipe it clean. To the extent that the, like she said, these fresh shoots, these green shoots were able to now grow. And it's from there that she saw new, a new part of herself, new realizations that I actually don't want to be treated like shit anymore, and I don't have to be.

Willow:

Yeah, and then, and then like she had to get out of that relationship, you know, she started to see it was toxic because she was no longer in that place anymore. I think that's just, I

Leah:

and profound, deeply profound. I was sharing this with, um, um, after the interview and he said that is such a classic. Um, slave master, a deep, deep, um, pull gravitational pull. Like in that moment when she is, um, looks over and sees that dominatrix at that first party, that fetish party that she goes to. And she's seen that dominatrix glow, light up, watching her

Willow:

Mm

Leah:

experience this. And then she's like, I'll take her, you know, and then she has, and then asking for the whip and getting off, not

Willow:

On the pain. Yeah.

Leah:

important distinction for the slave master relationship.

Willow:

hmm.

Leah:

Because the slave's motivation is not pleasure. The submissive's motivation is pleasure. We want a, a, a, um, a shift in the system. But the slave master dynamic is not necessarily motivated by that. If they get pleasure, how nice. But it's motivated, that, that devotion comes from wanting to see the master's happiness, wanting to experience their suffering, transforming the master's system. How it's really the, it's really wanting to see the master's shift in their system is so supersedes everything else. And I'm going, I just can't imagine wanting that. It's one of the things that I was experiencing inside.

Willow:

Oh, me too. I'm like,

Leah:

and delighted by the human psyche's capacities.

Willow:

think, yeah, I mean, I just, it's really profound. It's really, it's making me excited for the BDSM weekend coming up.

Leah:

I know. And I really didn't realize that this was, this was one of our topics today when we sat down. So I was, I was like, how apropos, um, I'm hosting, uh, um, introductory experience into, uh, Dark Eros, y'all. Um, so we'll, I'm sure we'll talk about it in, in one of our future L& W Episodes. You can look forward to that.

Willow:

All right, ciao.

Leah:

yeah. So, uh, you know, I'm assuming we're going to get some controversial stuff from this episode. I'm sure this is going to stir up a lot of feelings for some of you out there. So just remember, stay open, stay curious, and tell us all your thoughts.

Willow:

Leave us comments. Let us know what you think. We're so curious.

Leah:

Love, love, love.

Willow:

Ciao.

Announcer:

Thanks for tuning in. This episode was hosted by Tantric Sex Master Coach and Positive Psychology Facilitator, Leah Piper, as well as by Chinese and Functional Medicine Doctor and Taoist Sexology Teacher, Dr. Willow Brown. Don't forget, your comments, likes, subscribes, and suggestions matter. Let's realize this new world together.

People on this episode

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Dr. Willow Brown

Host
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Leah Piper

Host
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ELIZABETH HENDRICK

Guest