The Sex Reimagined Podcast

Patrick Eilers: Your Brain on Porn & the 90-Day Reset That Increases Porn Recovery Success | #127

• Leah Piper, Dr. Willow Brown, Patrick Eilers • Season 3 • Episode 127

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In this eye-opening episode, certified sex addiction therapist Patrick Eilers shares crucial insights about porn addiction recovery, early exposure prevention, and rebuilding intimate relationships. With over four years of specialized experience and a master's degree in clinical counseling psychology, Patrick brings both professional expertise and compassionate understanding to this challenging topic.

ESSENTIAL TAKEAWAYS

  • Early Intervention Matters: With children accessing devices at younger ages, prevention and education are crucial.
  • Recovery Is Possible: A structured approach combining therapy, support groups, and lifestyle changes can lead to successful recovery.
  • Partners Need Support Too: Healing requires addressing both individual addiction and partner trauma.
  • Healthy Sexuality Framework: Understanding the 12 dimensions of healthy sexuality is key to recovery.

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Leah:

Well, hey friends, welcome back to the Sex Reimagined podcast. If you are new here, we are tickled to have you. Please like, subscribe, and share your thoughts on this episode. My name is Leah Piper. I am the co host of this podcast and I'm with Dr. Willow Brown.

Willow:

today we have Patrick Eilers, a seasoned professional in the field of clinical counseling psychology with a master's degree in psychology and a graduate certificate from the Moody Theological Seminary of Michigan. He brings a wealth of knowledge and experience. to our discussion specializing in sexuality and porn addiction and Patrick shares insights from his career in counseling people who've been addicted to porn and offering some really valuable advice on overcoming these challenges. So really rich interview, really great to sit with Patrick and you all are going to love him.

Leah:

Hey, you guys, you know how much I love a Michgi. We got a Michigander on the show today and, uh, we really do pour into this complex thing called porn addiction that so many people struggle with, especially young people. So please tune in, turn on and fall in love with Patrick, another Michigander.

Announcer:

Welcome to the Sex Reimagined Podcast, where sex is shame free and pleasure forward. Let's get into the show.

Leah:

Welcome to the show everyone. We've got Patrick in the studio and we are going to dive right in to the impact of porn addiction, both in the relationship for the person who is addicted to porn and also for the partner if there is a partner and the impact on them and the some of the things that they need to manage therapeutically.

Willow:

Yeah, we've got an expert in the house. We're so glad that you're here, Patrick, to just share with us what you've seen clinically in, um, you know, regarding men who've been stuck on porn since maybe even before puberty, since they were maybe eight or nine years old, and the effects that that has on not only their relationship to their own sexuality, but intimate relationships later on in life.

Leah:

Wait, wait, wait, wait. Just a, just a minute here, folks. Eight year olds are getting addicted to porn? This is the first time I'm hearing of that. Patrick, help. What's going on?

Patrick:

Well, it certainly could be an early age and uh, and certainly, you know, sometimes can be younger than that too, depending on if it's, uh, you know, when their exposure is. And, you know, we know that kids start, you know, 5, 6 years older, you know, having devices and, uh, have access to things that, uh, you know, parents don't have any clue about. So it really depends upon kind of, you know, what their story is and everybody's stories individual. So we have, if they're A lot of different experiences for folks. There's nearly kind of no like one size fits all sort of a story. Everybody's story has their own narrative. So I really, it is important to think about when, when, uh, you know, and for each individual story, when they started to have those experiences, but they can be in that early age range for sure. Five to 10 years old.

Leah:

Wow. Well, welcome to technology. Um,

Willow:

I feel like when I was maybe in my early 20s, I was hearing the statistic around, like, that kids are getting into drugs and sex at around 9 years old. And that was before, like, this massive blow up of everyone has their own little hand held computer in their, in their

Leah:

I have never heard of it being eight and nine years old. I heard of it being like sixth graders, you know, which And my coming of age was more like 8th and 9th graders, but we're talking 5th graders and 4th graders. I mean, you're, you're like, how old are you when you're 10? What, you're in like 4th and 5th grade? I don't, I'm just a little

Willow:

NIFT.

Leah:

Yes.

Patrick:

I mean, it just, it just, it depends too. Cause I mean, I think there's a lot of that experience. Like, you know, when you start, you know, what do you find on you? A lot of times it's, it's people's friends. You know, people know about different things from different places. Sometimes it's just that they Google search things. And so if your devices are not, you know, having some type of monitoring software on them, typically it's very common for people to start having those experiences where they start to have exposures to it. They may not be addicted to it or, or search is seeking it out. Yeah. All the time, but they are certainly having exposure to it. And that does tend to sort of trend to the direction of, you know, when do you start to become obsessed over it or thinking about it to the point that it's unhealthy. So there certainly is an aspect of that where, you know, do we call it diagnosable addiction at 8, 9 years old? Probably not. But certainly the aspect of people having those early exposures are a big, big part of what starts that process.

Leah:

And, you know, in the studies that I've read, uh, Patrick, you know, my understanding, I believe it was 2008 or 2010 when the internet really started to go big with porn. And so what we've seen is like 50 percent rise in porn addiction, um, I think it was 2008, maybe it was 2005, actually. And, and that it's really the video porn that has skyrocketed, um, this being an issue, and especially in ages younger than 40, we're seeing the rise of erectile dysfunction as a correlation to porn addiction. Is that, does that line up with the things that you've studied?

Patrick:

For sure. Yeah. As far as the study goes, I mean, one of the most more recent studies I found was one from Mayo Clinic. I think it was 2019. So it's a little more recent than some of the ones you're mentioning. But, um, as far as, you know, they're, they're, they're estimating between 68%, 24 million people, at least in this in the United States anyway, as far as being, um, maybe what we consider in the, in the Range of where sex addiction would exist for them. And again, video porn is a big part of that. So, um, I think there's certainly been an increase for that since, you know, since 2005, really, since the internet has been around, certainly moving from, you know, sort of digital photography to more of like a videos video and moving into more as we're trending toward virtual reality. Uh, metaverse, you're talking about, you know, moving toward, uh, robots and those kinds of things there. So we're not really sure totally. And I always, I tell people all the time, you know, the idea that we haven't really have full generation from birth to death, have the internet entirely in their life. You know, we've had people who've been born with the internet, but not people who've been going through an entire generation of it. So we really don't know the outcome of a lot of these things. We're kind of in the midst of the storm and we still have ways to go. So we don't really know what the outcome totally is going to be at the end. Cause we don't. Really know what the result that we haven't lived that yet. So we're in that position where, you know, I think it's still, still moving and still trending it's, it's stuff that isn't, we haven't really landed, so to speak at like the, you know, the worst, the worst, if you'd say it's probably continuing to, to trend in a, in an upward direction, uh, for, to affect people in that way.

Leah:

And what's the percentage of between, um, men and women who you're seeing with porn addiction?

Patrick:

So for me, I mean, I have mostly men, uh, mainly because I'm a guy. So a lot of, you know, mostly work with men cause men are comfortable working, but we have, I know we have in our practice, you know, we have a, our practice really specializes in sexual addiction and the other side of it is the partner trauma, which is really how the partners end up getting impacted by addiction by porn addiction, by infidelity, those kinds of things. Uh, for us, for me, I'd say, you know, 95 plus percent of it are guys right now. I don't, I don't really have any women on my caseload, but that doesn't necessarily mean that women are not affected by this. It's just, you know, women probably are more comfortable talking to women about it. So I know a couple of my colleagues do have some people that they work with that are female, um, that are, uh, you know, definitely dealing with this part of it too.

Willow:

yeah, there's certainly plenty of women who are addicted to it as well. I mean, it's, it's, and it's, what's so interesting about it is that it's not the actual porn they're addicted to, it's, they're addicted to the chemicals that they, the response inside of their own body that they get from watching it. So, it, and we all, uh, are addicted to dopamine and oxytocin like we all want that like hit of those, you know, endorphins in our bodies. And so when, when we get that from a certain, you know, from pornography, then yeah, we want to keep watching it. I'm so curious, like, um, when clients come to you, cause I created this whole beautiful program for porn addiction from a, from a met a Chinese medicine perspective, like how to overcome addictions, you know, amino acids to feed your brain chemistry with to really stop those addictions because you can overcome addiction to anything, sugar, sex, you know, whatever with, with amino acid therapy. It's pretty powerful. And um, and it's been hard to market because people aren't raising their hand and saying, Oh, I have a porn addiction. We actually looked it up on Google, like what's the actual population that we could even market this to? And

Leah:

people are like searching like porn addiction. Yeah. Yeah. Like what are the key words for people who are looking for help? Are people looking for help?

Willow:

so I'm just curious, like when people come to you, what are, what are they saying when they first arrive on your doorstep?

Patrick:

Yeah, so I think there's kind of two big parts to it. The first part is certainly that a partner usually is a main motivator why people will seek out recovery or seek out some type of, uh, type of therapy typically. Um, meaning the relationship. Sometimes it's immediate discovery, but usually it's a long period of time, meaning that, you know, they could have had 5 years, 10 years, 15 years, whatever it might be. Where it's just been continuous. And the partner's like, look, this either stops or I'm not going to continue this relationship. And so we do see a lot of people in kind of that desperation chaos of, Hey, this, I have to address this now and this has to go away or whatever the case might be. And it's very common for people to kind of go for that one side of it. They want to just stop behavior. They really don't want to do any of their beyond work, which is kind of the secondary part, which is more of, you got to make a lifestyle change. You want to do something different. You got to make some changes. You can't just. Stop the one part of the behavior. So we see a lot of people focusing on that first part, and that's why they haven't had success over a period of time because they're not really doing anything different, they're just trying to avoid it. And the more we try to avoid something, the more we're thinking about it, the more likely we're going to keep doing it. So what ends up happening is this avoidance factor actually becomes more of a draw for, you know, draws people into continuing the behavior than trying to get away from it and we just can't escape it in the culture. So that's just something we have to be aware of. I think the other thing that brings people in is, is how actually it does escalate for folks. Some people, it will, it will escalate to the point that their life is affected. They can't go to work because they're, they're not sleeping. They can't, uh, you know, function to their normal system, you know, things that they like to do. There is a spiritual, cultural piece to that, depending if you are a, you know, if you're, if you're, You know, if you're a Christian, if you're, or has some type of, um, you know, sort of religious background that way, yeah, faith based background, you're certainly going to, you know, probably more motivated to stop this behavior than me, somebody who might not be. So there are some things like that that come up, but for the most part, it's usually drawn in by a partner or by, you know, some circumstance like that around that, a loss of a relationship, something like that typically is what usually brings people in as far as recognizing, Hey, I can't stop this. And I, I don't know what to do about that.

Leah:

So what makes it an addiction? What are some of the qualities that if someone was listening and they wondered about, Am I addicted? What are some of the trademarks that would help someone sort of start the diagnosis process? And do you even recommend that they look at it that way?

Patrick:

Yeah, I probably wouldn't say let's, you know, dive right down the diagnostics. I'm a person who just, you know, diagnostics are help us explain things or help us to understand, make sense of what's going on. But they don't necessarily always, um, they're not always, we don't want to put our identity in those diagnostics either. So I'm kind of in a place where I try to be in the middle there. Uh, the one thing I guess I'd say, first thing I think about is thought life. You know, a lot of this stuff across the board with mental health comes from your thought life. What's your thought life about? What are you thinking about? What's on your, what's on your mind? The more you focus on sex, uh, the big one I hear a lot about times we call preoccupation, meaning that people are just highly focused on the, if you're a man, the women you see in the society, women, the men, the men you see in society and focusing on fantasizing about those people. A lot of folks talk about objectifying. So they, they, they've turned the person into an object. They sexualize them. They fantasize about them and they can't get them out of their mind. That's a, that's a big one. So the first part would be how much are you thinking about sex? And again, we don't really know how to. A lot of times in society, we don't know how to necessarily balance that because what is too much? I'd say if it's the point that I can't stop thinking about it, then I probably, it's probably too much. So how much am I really thinking about it? And then the other thing I guess I'd say with that too is, you know, does that translate then into behavior in the sense of my watching a lot of pornography when I've already said I was going to stop. So similar to other addictions, you know, you're going to consume this behavior, you're going to consume this, uh, you know, we'll call a substance. Um, even though it's a little bit different, but still the same idea. We're consuming it. And then what I was translating is that my life is now affected or disturbed by the fact that I continue to do this, even though I said I was going to stop. That's another one. A third one you might look for is isolation. You know, people typically who are acting out. Tend to isolate more from other people. And then what I mean by that is that they tend to just get away from folks. Sometimes it's because of shame sometimes because they feel like they're just overwhelmed by this behavior and they just don't want to, it's easier to go watch porn and feel better. As we're kind of mentioning earlier than to try to focus on the relationships they have with people. So isolation would be a big one. You know, do I find myself just not wanting to be around people? And do I, then does that turn into then me acting out more? Um, so those are, those are some things I guess I'd say probably that. You know, most people can kind of see in their own life if that's really happening. And I think being in reality is a big part of that, because what happens for a lot of folks is a lot of people are in denial. Uh, this one, probably more than any of the other addictions, you can be in more denial than anywhere else because you minimize it. You know, it's not, this isn't happening as much as it is. This is this, I'm not giving this amount of time to it. I'm being more, you know, everybody else does it. That's a very common one. So there's always a minimization piece to it. So the more we're, the more we're in denial. The more likely we were probably involved in behavior that we, it's unhealthy for us.

Leah:

How many people are acting out in the way of like risky sexual behavior, meaning they're, they might be cheating, they may be seeing escorts, they may be, um, you know, taking it even further than just watching on the computer.

Patrick:

Yeah. And I wouldn't say there's a, I wouldn't say it's 50 50 by any means, but I'd say maybe,

Willow:

60 40.

Patrick:

a little higher. 70, I'd probably go 70 30 maybe in the sense of 30 being people with more high risky behavior, typically. So, uh, what I found is that more people who are younger, typically, unless it's continued to elevate to the point that now the fantasy is turning into reality for them, uh, they usually stay within the realm kind of of porn. And again, there can be a lot of risk with that too. So there's certainly an element of what that, you know, you talk, I'd add porn. Also with chat rooms and those kinds of things in that, in that sense as well. So then you have people who are, you know, when that escalates into high risky behaviors, now we're talking about, yeah, sex in public. Uh, escorts, uh, massage parlors, pretty common, um, those kinds of behaviors. So then you have more folks who are kind of on that side of it. And again, depending on what that looks like for their behavior and why they're, why they might be doing that. Um, those are, those are impactful. Those certainly will help people, I think, become more aware that there's something going on. Especially if they have a relationship that they're, you know, primary relationship they're involved in because those things become very clear, right? Hey, look, I'm, I'm going to these things. I'm doing these massage parlors. I'm going to escorts, even though I said, I wasn't going to do that. So there's an element of that. I think that, you know, that helps break more denial maybe than pornography.

Leah:

Well, then I suppose some of the consequences are like, you're spending more money, right? You're spending money on porn, or you're spending money going to parlors, and spending money on escorts, and then that can escalate and put people in debt, and further disrupt their relationship if they're in one, breaking down trust, betrayal, so on and so forth. Um, before I ask my question, I just want to give Willow a chance, because I think she had a question on the tip of her tongue, and I can remember mine.

Willow:

I was just wondering, like, what's the, um, What, what's your take on, on sexuality being a taboo topic in our culture, even in today's, you know, world that's a little bit more liberated, having an effect on people becoming so addicted to this thing. Like if we were talking more freely about sexuality, if they were growing up with conversations, you know, with their family and with their friends where they could, you know, if there wasn't this, like underlying element of shame and hiding around sexuality. Do you think people would have a different relationship to it? Again, we get addicted to the chemicals that those like really intense porn scenes give us. Um, but would we be craving those?

Leah:

Well, and would our recovery be different? You know, if we could talk more openly, would we seek recovery in a different way or have better conversations with our partners?

Patrick:

Well, I think people will look at it definitely much more, much more of a healthier way for sure. Because I think one of the things we look for. You know, did people come from a background that's been very rigid or has it been very, uh, you know, again, taboo type topics because the more rigidity you have, and I've had questions about, you know, how early do you start talking to your kids about it and things like that. Um, I always say, you know, whatever's in, you know, again, age appropriate from some perspective is starting to educate kids, I think is going to be helpful because it gets that conversation moving in that direction. So I got, I'm not advocating that we should go out and tell them everything at one time. It's more of just, you know, gradual, you know, gradual, gradual education for them as we go. But yeah, I think it would really change the perspective on how people, it's not something that would have to be hidden. You're more open about, you know, you learn what's unhealthy and healthy, which is really, that's if we're talking about societally, why, why we have uh, so much disparity is that we really don't know what's healthy and what's unhealthy. Uh, one of the things I've, I've always considered, you know, as I've started working in this part of the field has been, you know, unhealthy sexual behavior really seems to be self serving. Healthy sexual behavior always seems to be relationally giving. So you're going to have a translation of either you're turning into a relationship or you're going to turn into yourself. And so, a lot of times I think when we're talking about unhealthy sexual behavior, it's almost always about yourself. It's always what you can get out of it, what you can see out of it, you know, masturbation is all about yourself, what you're looking at, how you're going to interact with that, those are all about you. healthy relational sex is about relationships. You're turning back into your partner, you're making it about each other, you're having that closeness and building that intimacy. A lot of people fear intimacy. They fear bringing their wall down. And so the example I always give is, uh, I don't know if you know the whole improvement show, Tim Allen, when he had that neighbor that had the fence way up. That's my example. I think of people who don't want to be intimate, right? They, they have this fence up in their life and they don't want people to see what's in their yard. They're embarrassed that they're shameful of it. Maybe it's some really, you know, been really difficult things in their life. But they don't want people to know about that. So they just keep the fence up. And so they don't have any intimacy with their partner. And so the higher your fence is, the more likely that you're afraid to bring it down. And so what ends up happening is, you know, back to like our original kind of question about that was that there's, there is some shame about that. People will put their fence up when they talk about sex, cause that's kind of the cultural, you know, sort of overview of it. So I think that definitely having more conversations about move or help sister bring that fence down. And it also gives you an opportunity to have more connection with other people that there are people who are going through a lot of the same things that you are. Which is another part of what we see a lot of is people think that I'm, they're the only one suffering with this. Everybody else's is normal. They're abnormal.

Willow:

feel very isolating.

Patrick:

That's not true at all. Everybody, more people are probably going through this than, than anybody really understands.

Willow:

Yeah, I like that distinction, too, of the, the taking, you know, taking versus giving. Like, are you trying to get something out of it for yourself, or are you, is it for the, the union, the partnership? You know, vulnerability is the thing about intimacy that I think is so scary for people because, you know, we've said this before on the show, but vulnerable translates to woundable. Like, literally, that's the point. You could get hurt, but you won't be able to feel that depth of connection and love without taking that risk because you really have to show all of yourself to get to that level of phenomenal deep connection and love that we all deserve. And so it feels like this cultural, um, you know, taboo and shame around sexuality is This has, for so long, for so many eons, has been causing such a disservice to our ability to just be seen by each other and to be in that intimate space with each other, which is one of the most beautiful things that we have access to as human beings.

Leah:

Well, to that, to that point, I think also people don't think they're worthy of connection. They don't think they're worthy of that partnership. They don't think they're beautiful enough to get the girl or get the guy or whatever that, that insecure lack of confidence that stops them from pursuing the relational, and so they often feel like in the isolation of that, this is your only option. It's just you, baby. You know, and so again, it's like that, you know, that self centeredness, although I don't know that I like labeling that, it's just sometimes out of desperation of being able to move your energy, you go towards the easy path. You don't challenge yourself. You don't push yourself through that vulnerable moment of taking a risk and going, Hey, I think you're really cute, you know, and trying to have a more connection, um, with others. Uh, is that, is that resonate with what you are seeing, Patrick?

Patrick:

Yeah, definitely. I mean, the belief system is huge, right? You know, believe belief system, you know, I would tell guys a lot of times I work with, you know, you're wearing those glasses, whatever those glasses are of your beliefs. That's what you look at the world with. And if your belief is you're not worthy, you're not going to, you're not going to pursue those things because why, why would you do that? You know, no one's going to, if you think that no one's going to want to be with you or no one's going to want to love you or no one's going to want to learn how to, Accept your positive and your negative, you know, together. Um, you're gonna, yeah, you're gonna want to be isolated from that. So, um, and I know, and even my own personal experience, I mean, that was, you know, there was a time in my life where I did the same thing. I had those, I had those classes

Willow:

Sure, we've all been everybody's

Patrick:

So. Uh, so there's certainly an aspect of that that's very true, you know, so I think a lot of times, you know, What are people's belief systems play a huge role in how they think and it goes back to we talked about thought life Um so much of it comes out of what you know What you're thinking about you what you think about the world what you think about sex How you define that and like I we're kind of talking about earlier You know, going back to when you're, you know, eight, nine years old, if, if your understanding of sex is about you, which is really most all pornography, if not, I would say all pornography is that way. Uh, if that's what you've learned sex is, then it's going to be hard to differentiate between this is what I know sex is as you know, with me. And this is what sex is within a relationship. Those are gonna be two foreign concepts. So you, you, if you learn, this is what, this is what sex is by, by masturbating, then it's going to be very, it might be difficult to try to transition over to the relational piece. And we do see that from time to time as well.

Willow:

Okay, I have two questions. One is, how do you think we could get into the school systems and shift things there in order to help young kids who are coming into their sexual time in their life? And the second one, they're not related, is, maybe they are, is um, Like, if somebody's, you know, having their first exposure at 8, 9, and by 15 they're, like, chemically addicted to it, and by the time they're 35 they still haven't had an actual relationship, and then they're 45 or 55 and they're just, they're coming to you, and they're like, I don't know what to do, you know? Like, how Or somebody who's like, oh, I just started getting into porn around, you know, 40 and I've been, you know, dabbling and I'm starting to see that I'm getting more addicted, like, what's the recovery process based on sort of that range of people getting involved with

Patrick:

Yeah. Okay. So the first, the first question, uh, to go, what, what can we do to get in the school system? Um, well, I would say that from my experience when I had, when I had what they call freshman transitions, which is mostly my health class, uh, we probably need to have a little more education about what actually, why this is a bad thing, I think, or why it's an unhealthy thing. I should say it's more proper, proper term, term used, term use there. So what I would say is that one of the things that I think throughout the process of being an adolescent, right, you have to know, you know, it's, it's one thing to say this is unhealthy, but what's the reason why behind it? And so I think a lot of people will just hear this is bad, this isn't good, whatever the case might be. And so then they just, they, there's a curiosity that springs up from that. And so there's a desire to try and know more about what that is. And then that can kind of lead down that path. I think it's, it helps educating people about why these things are unhealthy. Now, if people choose to do that beyond that, I mean, there's, there's only so much we can control, but I think, can we educate people from the perspective of why sexual, why pornography specifically, if we're going to talk about that, why pornography is unhealthy, why is this something that's not good for you as a person? And I think you can kind of work through some of that and help people understand that. And I think more adolescents would be open to the idea of staying away from it if they kind of knew what was, where some of the damage it could do.

Willow:

Mm hmm.

Patrick:

It translates into my answer. Your second question is about what's the recovery process. So everybody's kind of in a different place in the recovery. There's lots of different types of fellowships out there in America. We have a second S.A., which is Sexaholics Anonymous. We got a lot of 12 step kind of pro programs. Um, those are, those are very good for people, especially if they've been isolated. It's good to kind of have other, you know, community of our people around. Those are not therapist led. Um, they are not usually engaging with like therapy type of stuff. So it's just again more of a group setting, um, support. It

Leah:

who

Patrick:

Yeah, that is. Yep. It is definitely a resource. There are a bunch of them online. They're around the world. You have, there's lots of SLA is another one, sex and love, anonymous, um, celebrate recovery. If you're more faith based that there's some, those one like that. Um,

Leah:

much are those, like, directed towards porn? Because that often has to do with, like, sex and acting out sexually that can go beyond porn, right? Are they, I mean, I don't know if you know this answer. I don't know if you lead any of these groups.

Patrick:

don't, so I'm not like directly, like, I don't have a direct, you know, to say that, but I know a lot of people who are part of, yeah. You know, they do talk about that being, can be a good support for them, even if it's about porn or acting out other ways. Um, the one, our, our program we have, our recovery program is really a three step process, and it's, it's coming out of Dr. Patrick Carnes. He's kind of the guy as far as like addiction research that's out there, especially relating around sexual addiction. He started the research in the 80s. And so his, his program is really a three step process. So you have the individual work, which is working with me. Um, we have a recovery group that's therapist led. So those are a little bit different than like a 12 step program. And then we have a sponsorship, uh, you know, a guy that's kind of mentoring, some mentoring, one of the other individuals in the program that, you know, is further along. So, um, the research suggests or shows that in that sense, that setup of those three approaches with those together, um, yield the best results for people if they, and again, depending on if they need to be inpatient or outpatient, again, that's another part of it too. We're outpatient. So again, that's the setup we use with the outpatient program. Um, if you're inpatient, it's going to be a little more similar to like a, like a substance inpatient where you're going to go and they're going to just, they're going to remove you from the substance for 40 days. They're going to do some a lot of intense therapy, and then they're going to send you back to an outpatient setting like we have. So, um, so it's a little bit, it depends on kind of where you're at as far as, um, how it's affecting you. And so one of the things I always encourage people is if they are interested in finding out about, you know, sort of where they would sort of land, uh, a good assessment to take is one called, uh, an SDI, uh, sexual dependency inventory, and those are, um, can be, they can be administered by a CSAT, which is what I am as a certified sex addiction therapist. And so that assessment actually will tell you kind of where you stand to compared to the average population, if I find my words, and they'll give you an idea of whether or not inpatient or outpatient is a good, is a good fit for you if, you know, you want to look at recovery programs. So there's some different things with that, that the SDI can help people know about. So I always encourage people to think about that if they're concerned about it, that's a good way to go.

Leah:

how, would people just Google SDI?

Patrick:

Uh, so it's something that we have to administer. So there is usually, at least in our, our, our case, that there's a cost to it. So you have to come in and, you know, be part of at least, at least for one or two sessions to kind of get,

Willow:

It's like an initial assessment, basically,

Patrick:

Yeah, it's something we do real early.

Leah:

would find providers of this. You know, especially if they're not in Michigan. Cause it sounds like you have to go, go in person? Or can you do these things virtually?

Patrick:

Uh, so we do them virtual too. Uh, so again, like so we send There's a link that we send and people take it online It's an online assessment then we get the results and then we would virtually present it to them Um again, not just in michigan. So across the country in the i think it's across the world. They have um, you know, there's CSAT is um, we're part of a group that's Trying to think of the actual the actual grouping is basically the certified sexual addiction therapist is from a group of therapists that you know, there are specified or we're specialized in that particular area. So as far as that, if you looked up certified sex addiction therapists, you would find people who are certified for

Willow:

It's kind of like acupuncturists who are certified in fertility, like Faborm, you know, they have this whole sect of acupuncturists. It's like an additional sort of thing after you get your therapy license, yeah.

Leah:

Uh, you know, I was, I was thinking about,

Patrick:

the group's called ITAP. My apology. I had to

Willow:

Oh yeah, it's right behind you. Just take a look. What's it called? I Tab?

Patrick:

ITAP is the, that's our certification group. So, uh, I don't know

Leah:

if you're a therapist listening and you want to start to specialize in this area, where would, where would you go to get training? Okay,

Patrick:

www.itap.Com. And so there's, you can do the training there. It's a, it's a four, four week training in total, but it ends up being like spread out, so you do them in different mods. And then there's a certain period where you have to be, um, do some supervision with somebody.

Willow:

That's not, that's not too much extra. No. That's great.

Patrick:

So it's a, it's a pretty, it's, I wouldn't say it's easy, but say it's, it's a relatively quick process. It's, it's shorter than it actually feels like at the beginning. But. Um, yeah, I get some good, you get some good training on it. And then they, they basically put you in a position where you can be able to work with the people who specifically are struggling with this. And, um, and we're in a position where we need, you know, there's definitely have a need for people. That's one reason why I got involved with it was because not only for my own personal story, but also just from the fact that I saw as a need and it's an area where there's not a lot of people to help, you know, let me jump in and help if I can. So, uh, it was an opportunity to, to come here. Four years ago to start where I'm at. So this is, uh, so I've been doing this, they said about four years now. So,

Willow:

Speaking of your own personal story, tell us a little bit about your Genesis story, darling. Like, how did you get into therapy, and what kind of led you toward this road of helping people overcome uh, porn addiction?

Patrick:

yeah, so I mean, for me, my, I was, uh, you know, I, I grew up with a lot of just, I never really had a specific skill set that I could ever measure. So I was never like, you know, really good at math or really good at history or whatever. You know, I had, like, a lot of little things I was good at, but I never really had, like, a specific kind of growing up is like, hey, I really want to do this or want to do that or whatever. In high school, a lot of people would come to me with all their stuff, you know, their problems, what's going on in life, and they just would talk to me about stuff, and I'd just listen. So that was just, that was kind of me. I didn't have a lot of friends, so I figured, well, I guess these are the people I'm going to hang out with. And so, uh, by my senior year, I felt called to this career, and the main thing was there's a video out there, and there's a lot of different versions of it now, but Uh, basically people have these big cards and they have an identity that they wrote on their card and they come out and they flip the card and the card has a different identity on the back of it. And for me, that was my inspiring. And I was like, I want to parse something like that. I want to help people. You know, flip their identity, so to speak, in that way for something healthy. So, um, I started the journey working, um, you know, I did, I did four years of psychology, then I did three and a half years in master's program doing, uh, my, my master's actually is in clinical counseling psychology. So it kind of started with that and has a, I have a little bit of a theological background with some of that stuff that I've done. So I kind of have an integration piece there. And then I was a general practitioner for most of my, the first, uh, Well, the first about six years in my, well, I'm sorry, four years of my career. So I worked a couple of different cities and I started, I was at a relatively moderate sized practice. Then I moved to a startup practice. So I was actually able to start from the practice from the ground up, which is really cool. Um, I did some adjunct professor teaching. I did, it was a, it was an adjunct professor for a couple of colleges for a little while. I worked in the prison system as an adjunct professor for a short period of time. And then, uh, when I had an opportunity to come North Point really happened during the pandemic. So then there was an opportunity to come here. So I made the switch and I've been here ever since. And so this has been kind of where I'm at right now. And I do have a long term goal of eventually becoming a, I'd like to be a supervisor and work on some doing, you know, helping people, uh, other therapists. That's kind of my goal in the end right now. But, um, you know, I also like doing this, this kind of stuff too. So, um, Lots of different interests, lots of different parts as far as, you know, again, I saw this as a need and, and this is something where I'm like, Hey, this is a, you know, I want to, I want to help out if I can. And, you know, I've also had my own experience, you know, I was younger, certainly adolescent, young adult, uh, you know, my own struggles with pornography as far as overcoming that. And just, you know, being part of that, you know, in my own life is just like, I know that that can definitely be, uh, it can feel very shackling for people. So I can't understand why people, you know, just get stuck in it.

Leah:

No, Patrick, you know, I specialize in sexual healing, specifically with trauma, having to do a sexual abuse. And it seems to me that a lot of people that the part of their story is one of two things. One is, um, uh, very religious, shame filled sex negativity, um, certain conditioning that makes the body bad. And then as a result, they're being exposed to people who are acting out their sexuality in more covert, dangerous ways, especially with children. Um, and then on the other side is people that were overexposed. It wasn't that they had a rigid conditioning that, um, kind of kept this feeling of secrecy. It was that they lived in a household where they were overexposed to sexuality. Porn was on the TV all the time. Dad had a, uh, a subscription to Playboy TV. Magazines were everywhere. It was, and then sometimes there were like parties involved and parents had just had a, uh, a lifestyle that, um, overexposed um, a, a kid, a teen, even, you know, just sort of in that, in, in the raising of that. Now that's a smaller percentage as opposed to those that were sexually abused, um, due to restriction. So I'm curious how much of that has played into the storyline of leading people down a path that are finding themselves stuck and in a way that you're helping them now.

Patrick:

Yeah, I think there certainly is a percentage of people, like you said, on the other side of it. Right? The people who've been overexposed and certainly people who, you know, again, we talk about kind of that exposure online is part of that. But then certainly lifestyle among parents is obviously what is normed. I always think about you know, whatever your norm you're working from is probably what you're going to go back to. Whether or not it's unhealthy or healthy, you got to be aware of what that looks like. And so, yeah, definitely a piece of that for sure. If you've been exposed to, yeah, mom and dad really make it, you know, didn't think this was a concern. They didn't really keep me from it. Those kinds of things. Yeah, certainly there's a percentage of people that are on that kind of on that side as well. Um, It just seems like there's a lot of extremes with it, like, and just a lot of addiction and kind of the way people process those is just, again, it's either it's so strict that there's a curiosity or it's so overexposed. It's, you know, there's no boundaries. So, um,

Leah:

It almost seems like, like there's an adopting of the behavior or there's a rejection of the behavior. You know, like, I know some people, I, one of the places I'm trained is in, is in Tantra, in terms of the sexuality aspect of it, which is sort of a sacred approach to looking at sex and intimacy, and although I've known people whose parents were very Tantric, and they are like, no way, I don't want anything to do with Tantra. Um, and so there's a rebellion against some of these concepts, as much as there's an adoption of, uh, whatever was normal growing up, how is the treatment? Like, is it Abstinence from porn. Is it a gradual weaning? Is it, and when I say weaning, I mean, most of the treatments that I've looked up, it's abstinence from porn, and then with a, an encouragement to use your imagination, to get off the brain hook, the neural pathway that gets stronger and stronger due to repeat exposure, and the fact that the visual video in particular, has a neurological consequence that is more severe than looking at magazines or reading erotica, um, things of that nature because you have to use your imagination more in those other media, mediums. So, what's the, what's that part, what's the practical part of the treatment?

Patrick:

so in the recovery program, Um, again, it really depends. I think, you know, first off, if the person's in a relationship, if they're in a relationship, I mean, porn abstinence is number one. If you're talking about like, okay, we're just going to, we're going to hit the reset here. Let's work on kind of working on reducing that, you know, changing the behavior, working on not having any slips or relapses, meaning they're not going to go back to the old behavior. So really from day one, you're kind of talking about, okay, like, here's some, here's some things I'm identifying as unhealthy behavior. Here's I'm identifying as things that put me in danger of that behavior. And then what's my focus, where am I sort of going? Um, I think about, you know, if you're, you know, when you bowl you know, you can, you have to kind of focus on where you want to target the pin. So when you throw the bowling ball down the alley, um, it stays on track. So it doesn't go one side or the other. When you lose focus, the ball is going to go to one extreme or the other. Right. And that's very much what people typically do. Right. So they either overindulge or they tend to sort of be avoidant. So you can have on. Both of those extremes.

Leah:

Okay.

Patrick:

Once you've kind of established that sort of idea of sobriety, usually it takes about 90 days is when the brain starts to change those pathways again. And, you know, sort of rebuilding a new freeway, so to speak in your brain. Um, then you can transition into more of, okay, doing a little bit more of the deeper work and as you do more of that kind of background of what's going on in your own life, um, you're also kind of trying to work toward rebuilding the relationship. Now, some relationships, depending on where they're at. Um, they may actually do a disclosure process, which is a whole different, that's a whole nother additional piece to the relationship before we do any relational work. Um, I don't do disclosures, but um, there are, my colleagues in the office do do those. So there's a part of that that, you know, there's a whole process to just being able to get back to, um, you know, the relationship, being able to connect again, work together.'cause a lot of that when you have partner trauma, you know, even if, even if the person's not acting out anymore, the partner still thinks that they are. Um, so there's a lot of those behaviors that are very, they, they tend to look for those. So.

Leah:

What does disclosure mean exactly? Does that mean they're getting honest about what it is that's been happening with them? Or maybe they've been withholding honesty? What's,

Patrick:

Yeah, so that's, that's ultimately what the goal is, is to, um, in our case, there's a, there's a five stage sort of, uh, there's a five stage bridge to kind of reconnecting the relationship. So you think about the relationships now to islands, and we want to kind of bring those back together. So there's a process to bring them together. Uh, but when you do a disclosure, yeah, you're just total transparency. So everything, you know, the partner may ask from birth till now, what was all the things you've been doing? What are the things you've been part of? And so you have a whole document you work through. And then at the end of that, there's a polygraph piece to verify again, non criminal polygraph. It says there's a whole, there's a whole detail to it, but basically the idea there is that the polygraph helps to help the person evidence that they're telling the truth.

Leah:

Right,

Patrick:

a therapeutic polygraph is to give them, yeah, so, so the, the goal there is that the person is saying, okay, yes, this document is 100 percent accurate. Here's what evidence is that being true and now we can kind of move forward and then of course the partner is also working on their part of understanding the trauma that's happened to them so that they can be able to heal as well. One of the things I tell the guys a lot is that, you know, if your relationship, if you know, it's a, it's a, it's an aquarium, there's a bunch of, there's a bunch of living organisms in it. And if you introduce a betrayal, it's like dropping a couple red drops of food coloring in that, in the tank. You can't take the water out of the tank if you want the relationship to continue. So you got to learn how it's, how it's going to work together. And that's not something you can do alone and fix that, right? You both have to do that. So that's another part of it that sometimes, um, gets derailed because a lot of times the partners are like, no, I don't want anything to do with this because I didn't do it and that's a hundred percent accurate. But it also, at the same time, means that you're also affected by it, which is unfortunate, but is, but is part of the facts that you have to work with.

Willow:

I gotta say, Patrick, I love your use of analogies. I mean, we've had so many good analogies. Metaphors, yeah, so good.

Patrick:

Well, I've had

Willow:

It's so helpful to, like,

Patrick:

working on more. I still

Willow:

Yeah, it's so helpful for people to understand through metaphor, you know? It just gives a better understanding, so

Leah:

yeah, so, uh, there was another, I had another question in there, um, regarding the whole treatment process. And that is, you know, where does sex positivity come back? I mean, I'm, I, I have watched how years of watching porn starts to shift an awareness to what someone is sexually attracted to, what turns them on, and going back to vanilla, maybe an unrealistic expectation to how this person Wants or needs or desires to express those desires, especially if they're going to shift from this sort of solo based, self centered based sexual expression to going, I want to share myself with someone else. And I want to also turn them on. So I can only imagine that one of the obstacles is if one partner has been left behind in the relationship and now the person who's been isolating themselves watching this video and it's, it keeps escalating to, to, I don't want to say stronger, stranger

Willow:

Stronger.

Patrick:

It can be.

Leah:

that, that is a pattern. Um, you know, okay. So there's that. And then I want to add one other element to that is that another thing that I keep receiving where I see in my practice all the time is the dysfunction that occurs sexually, meaning premature ejaculation goes up. Erectile dysfunction goes up. So here you are trying to repair with your partner, and you can't have the same kind of sex. The same kind of sex isn't working. There's something, so it's like you gotta, Ah! You can see, folks, how, how painful this is.

Patrick:

Yeah. And, and there's, so there's a lot there, but I'll try to see if I can give you a couple of practical pieces from it. So, uh, the first thing I'd say is that, right, everybody has an arousal, what they call an arousal template. And so our arousal template is basically like a sheet of paper. And when you take ink and you put your thumb in ink, and you put your thumb on, in the paper, you're, that's your first experience with sex, whatever that looks like, right? So if you've had, you know, you masturbated to porn, or you masturbated alone, or whatever that looks like, or maybe you had sex with somebody the first time, whatever, those are, that's going to be your imprint. That's your deepest imprint. That's going to be the darkest one. Now, you can continue to put thumbprints all the way down the paper, but every time you do that, you're going to have less, those, those are going to be less and less ink, so they're going to be less and less impactful. So what we find is a lot of times people will usually return to whatever their first experience was as being their one that they fantasize kind of or a lot of their fantasies kind of

Leah:

Kind of like a core erotic theme. Is that the same thing?

Patrick:

Yeah, kind of like that. Yeah. So there's like the same kind of transition with that. So like, again, the arousal template, that first imprint usually is really impactful. Um, so. Transitioning that to what you were kind of saying earlier, right? Is how does that look like for people understanding healthy sexuality? At the beginning of the program, they actually lay out 12 dimensions. Dr. Kearns has found 12 dimensions of healthy sexuality. And so a lot of those have to do with there's the back half of them are more about the actual relationship. The front half are all about you. So dimension one is nurturing. Dimension two is sensuality, being attuned to your senses. Dimension three is your image. Dimension four is your self definition. Dimension five is how comfortable are you at talking about sex. Dimension six is how much do you actually know about sex? Dimension seven is partnership with other people, relationships with other people, and dimension eight is partnership with your, with your spouse. Or your significant other. So let's see, as it transitions, it goes from you to there. So what happens, what's happening is, is a lot of times you have, you, a lot, a lot of my conversations, and I've said this to other people too, I don't even really talk that much about sex. I talk more about, you know, partner people and their impacts, their life, and what's, you know, kind of about what's going on for them, much more than we ever talk really about sex itself, because sex is just sort of the vehicle by which people are using to try to feel better. And so going back to like the idea, like we were saying, like, there's so much nurturing is your number one, if you're not willing to, you know, back to isolation, if you're not willing to have a two way street of nurturing, you're never going to be able to be with somebody in a true, transparent, intimate way, because you, there's only your path being. There's only one road being at, uh, being attained to you, but you're not willing to go the other, other side of the, of the road. So you have to have that nurturing piece. And so it kind of backs like you're asking, is it, is that there's, there's really, I think when you're transitioning people from what Pornography's taught them, it's really about, okay. Yeah. Stopping. So there is a piece of that as abstaining from, from pornography. But then learning what it means to actually have a connection in a healthy way with my partner and redefining that as a way that I'm turning into the relationship rather than just being about myself. So there is a piece of that, like, can I, can I start to learn what that is? And can that be more powerful than, than what my previous experience has been?

Willow:

Oh, this is so good. I want to have you back on the show, Patrick, cause

Leah:

I want to talk about those

Willow:

yeah, like, well, I want to go deep with those

Leah:

Yeah,

Willow:

sure. Yeah. We're going to have a whole show on

Leah:

yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I love it.

Willow:

Um, tell us, tell our audience where they can find you and how they can work with you.

Patrick:

Okay. So, our, the practice that I'm part of, our, our website is, uh, northpoint counseling. com. Uh, so that's the best way to get a hold of us as, uh, as any of the clinicians. I, you know, it's, uh, my, my, uh, we've been here for, my boss started the practice back in 2010. So we've been here, um, about 13 years or so. Um, so we're, you know, definitely check us out there. We're actually going to be starting our own podcast. So definitely check that out as well. It's going to

Willow:

What's the name of it going

Patrick:

North, it's called North Point Perspective. So it's gonna be a new, new podcast we're starting. It's gonna hopefully be weekly. Um, I'll be part of it. My boss will be part of it. Some of our colleagues will be part of it. So we're, we're looking forward to that. Um, you can reach me on Instagram. Uh,@rated_PGE is, uh, is my, my personal Instagram. I also have a Threads account attached to that too. Um, I have a LinkedIn at my name, uh, Patrick LERs. Uh, my. License LPC CSAT. So if you there's other Patrick hours out there, so not to get confused,

Leah:

We'll have, we'll have links in the

Willow:

Yeah,

Patrick:

yep So those are some different areas you can check us out at and and definitely if there's anything that you know It'd be great to be back and have an opportunity to talk more about some of those other dimensions

Willow:

Yeah, so much here.

Leah:

Thank you so much, Patrick. Um,

Patrick:

thank you so much for having me.

Leah:

Give a big hug to Michigan for me! And, um, but I'm glad I'm not in that weather.

Patrick:

Well, it's a little warmer now It was it was like that thing was like eight or something last week. So now we're now we're 40 or So...

Leah:

god, God bless. Well, uh, thank you everyone for tuning in and don't miss what's up next. We've got the dish for you where Dr. Willow and I will throw down on this whole situation, our experience and, uh, and some of the beautiful things that Patrick has brought to the table. So have a beautiful day. Do not forget to subscribe and leave us a review.

Willow:

Much love, y'all.

Announcer:

now, our favorite part, the dish.

Leah:

We're talking porn addiction on the dish.

Willow:

Ohh my gosh. Porn addiction is so challenging for individuals and it's shameful. It's not something that you're like raising your hand saying you have. I mean, all addiction is shameful. That's kind of part of

Leah:

Yeah. all addiction is challenging. Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha.

Willow:

It's because

Leah:

wired for it

Willow:

Yeah. And there's also this like shadow to it of like, God, I shouldn't be doing like, there's always, you're always down on yourself for doing the thing that you enjoy. I mean, I liked, there was something I, I feel like he was saying, can't remember exactly what, but something about like, the more you try not to, or the more you try to resist it, the more persistent it is. You know, what's that old adage, the, you know, what you resist persists. And so I think that's one of the really, um, Careful things you have to, uh, take into consideration when dealing with addiction. And, and as I touched on a little bit, but not, didn't go into too much detail, you can actually change your brain chemistry within 24 hours with amino acids. So whether you're addiction, addicted to drugs or alcohol, sugar or sex, like you can actually, there's these little receptor sites in your brain that are like little Pac Mans and they want that fix of sugar or alcohol or, or oxytocin, dopamine hits, or all you got to do is put the right amino acid in that receptor site and that little Pac Man is satiated. It's a really, um, I didn't, you know, I actually wanted to, when we have him back, I'll have to ask him if they use amino acid therapy at

Leah:

I think he would have said something. I think that's probably very uncommon.

Willow:

Yeah. Cause I did mention

Leah:

not a part of, like, traditional therapy. When do you ever hear The only time I've ever heard anyone talk about amino acids in, uh, in a health, um, uh, medical treatment formula has been with a naturopath. So I, I'm 100, I'm 99. 9

Willow:

Percent sure they don't use it.

Leah:

about it. Yeah, So let's talk about that a little bit. Um, one, you said you have to have the right formula. Um, and, and then two, where do you get them? Do you have to,

Willow:

Yeah, well. No, I mean you can get them on the shelves at the health food store. Um, but really amino acids come in meats. They come in especially red meats. Um, so those who are the most efficient in them tend to be vegetarians and that was me. You know, I was vegetarian for a long time and I was like, God, why am I so addicted to sugar? Why am I so addicted to these certain things? And it was because, um, that little receptor site didn't have the actual protein that it needed. So, you can use them supplementally. Julia Ross is like the leader in this field, and she has people, she has whole inpatient clinics where people come and they stay there, and they deal with their addiction through nutrition. It's really cool stuff. So, if you are interested in that, check out, um, there's two books, one's called The Diet Cure, one's called The Mood Cure by Julia Ross, and, um, you can learn. All about amino acid therapy. Or you can come have a conversation with me because I've been studying it and using it for a long time. It's an incredible way to overcome stuff. So just

Leah:

not good for?

Willow:

nobody.

Leah:

eat meat, I mean, who's to say that I'm deficient in any amino acids? Would it still help me

Willow:

Yeah, it would still help you. Yeah.

Leah:

Okay,

Willow:

And then of course.

Leah:

Like, are there tests that you take to see which amino acid they're deficient in?

Willow:

Yeah, so, yeah, so, with her clinical work, she does, I think, do blood work and stuff. Um, but similar to giving, um, uh, hormones, um, bioidentical hormones, they'll, they'll start to give the hormones before certain People will start to get the hormones before they do an actual blood test to kind of like start to feed the deficiency that they see clinically and Symptom it symptomatically and then they'll run tests to see how that's how that's mapping out inside the body. But really we want to just change the symptoms, but of course with sexual addiction and with porn addiction There's a lot more going on than just brain chemistry, right?

Leah:

cultural, conditioning, all sorts of stuff. That's more psychological than it is. Nutrition, but I think that that's one area nutritionally we're like, you know, one's talking about that. No one's thought that through except for Julia.

Willow:

I know. Well, I mean, she doesn't really talk about sexual addiction in her books, but every time that I have ever had a client who's coming to overcome porn addiction, or they might be coming for erectile dysfunction or premature ejaculation, and we dig a little deeper, and there tends to be like, wow, okay, you have this Like, you can't live without it. You can't go two days without pornography. Okay, I'm going to call that an addiction. And so I do start to look at their diet right away. I'm like, what are you eating? And they're just not eating well. And they're not drinking enough water. And so we shift to that and all of a sudden they just have more vitality. They have more space. They have more capacity.

Leah:

They're more resourced.

Willow:

to then deal with their psychological stuff that is causing the addiction.

Leah:

Yeah. so I, you know, the, this connection between denial and, um, resistance, um, you know, how interwoven those two are. It's when you can't admit that there is. That you're off track, you know, and you've got a lot of excuses that you try to prove to yourself that you're not off track even though your partner is upset and confused and you're less present and you're not really showing up for sex in your relationship because you already have a sexual life. That's easier. You press a button, you can, you can do play and no one's harping on you, no one is, you know, and so, although they are harping on you because they're wondering why you're not fucking them.

Willow:

Mhm. Mhm. Yeah.

Leah:

You already ejaculated two or three times that day.

Willow:

You know, that was one of the things we didn't get to talk about much either is just the effect that it has on, on partners. You know, when I've had a lot of female clients whose partners are addicted to pornography and, and how painful that can be for them and how, um, they just feel up against a wall. Like, you know, cause when we become our partner's guide and teacher, that generally doesn't work. So it's like, you know, and what he said was usually it's the partner that's bringing them into therapy. The partner is like, this has to change or we're not gonna.

Leah:

are real now. Yeah. you know, they have seminars designed to, um, for the spouse to be able to process the negative impact, um, this has had on their self esteem, on their worldview, on their belief system, on the impotency of feeling like you, you're, nothing you're trying is working to help your partner return back to you. Um, And all of that. I do like that they work with the partners together and start to go, okay, yes, this is the other person's problem, but if you're in partnership, there is a place where you have to partner on resolving the problem.

Willow:

Yeah,

Leah:

you know, through, I think a lot of people through their anger are just like, well, you got to fix it. It's your problem. You fix it. And there

Willow:

That doesn't

Leah:

where that's not going to actually bring you closer and really it's just a justification for you to stay angry.

Willow:

So I'm so curious, in all of your years of teaching Tantra seminars, like, have you had couples come through where that is the case? One person is addicted to pornography or sex addict in some way, and there's a disparity between the couples, and they're kind of coming for that. No, okay.

Leah:

there's not time for people to sort of bring up that. On occasion it would happen. In my private practice, um, yes on occasion it comes up through the couples, but again, they're, that's, they're gonna probably tell me that down the line if it's there. On occasion they'll lead with it, but where I see it the most is in individuals. Is with someone who is acting out, and part of their acting out is actually Contacting me, you know, it's it's

Willow:

Oh, for sure.

Leah:

driven in. I need novelty. I need, you know, and so, and so when I ask more questions about what's going on in their emotional, psychological life, what's going on for them spiritually, if they're in a partnership, why isn't their partner here with them? And so you're getting threads of what's going on. And so the reason why they come to me is often in premature ejaculation, um, is a big one, and also I'm having a problems with erections, and as I dig more and more, well, there's that bubble again. I thought I turned you off, bubble. Um,

Willow:

that.

Leah:

yeah, yeah, yeah, Yeah. Um, and so what's interesting is that starts to unravel. And once they, and so their motivation might have been, Oh, well I saw you online and I thought you were pretty and I know you're into the sex. I'm like, did you really read everything that I do? No, they just see Tantra, they see my picture and they go, you know, hopefully another unhealthy, not that they're thinking unhealthy, but another way to get off. You know, I have to, Willow and I have to spend time screening our calls because one of the things that people get stuck on is, is, and I think this is a part of the sexual addiction, porn addiction piece, is we're not here for your entertainment.

Willow:

Yeah.

Leah:

for your Education. We're here for your growth. And just because someone says they're a Tantra, Provider. Tantra teacher. Tantra expert. Dakini. Tantrika. Priestess. Doesn't mean that we're here to help you get off.

Willow:

No.

Leah:

to evolve how you get off.

Willow:

Yeah, yeah. We're here to help you explore new horizons of what it means to get off and not just get off, but to actually get on. Like, to get on the bandwagon of, wow, there's so much more to sexuality and there's So much more to your potential and your arousal and your ability to feel your own body. It's powerful. It's potent. It creates confidence and it creates this sense of, of empowerment inside of you, like that you can do anything that you put your mind to. And I think that's one of the most awesome things. I was having a conversation with a client or a potential client the other day, and they were saying like, you know, when I'm in that level of pleasure, I forget that I don't love my body. I forget that I, that I should have

Leah:

go away.

Willow:

Yeah, because that level of pleasure is so healing. Like, pleasure is medicine, people. So, drink it up.

Leah:

Well, and I think that's part of the porn addiction though, is the pleasure gives them relief. from the pain of not liking themselves. And so, it's a two way street, Right? The pleasure can give you relief from, like, feeling insecure and not confident about your body and then suddenly you're in a state and you're wide open and you're beautiful. Especially when you're being in connection with a partner.

Willow:

Yeah.

Leah:

otherwise, we can go to this place where it becomes so tempting to get out of the pain of your insecurities. That you drive yourself to these states. I mean, the French call it the little death. You know, you get to

Willow:

The Daoists call it that too. It's like, in a moment of, I don't, I don't

Leah:

don't exist.

Willow:

with my persona in this moment. Yeah.

Leah:

so you can

Willow:

But why not learn to stretch that out and in a healthy way where you're actually connecting to God essence.

Leah:

Yeah, right, so then it's

Willow:

That's what we teach. Okay. So come on down.

Leah:

Yeah. All right. Well, so Much fun.

Announcer:

Thanks for tuning in. This episode was hosted by Tantric Sex Master Coach and Positive Psychology Facilitator Leah Piper, as well as by Chinese and Functional Medicine Doctor and Taoist Sexology Teacher Dr. Willow Brown. Don't forget, your comments, likes, subscribes, and suggestions matter. Let's realize this new world together.

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Dr. Willow Brown

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Leah Piper

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