The Sex Reimagined Podcast

Laurie Handlers: 1st Date Questions You MUST Ask - The Revolutionary Conversation That Changes Everything About Dating | #126

• Leah Piper, Dr. Willow Brown, Laurie Handlers • Season 3 • Episode 126

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Ever wondered how to keep the spark alive in relationships or find deep, meaningful connection later in life? Join us for an intimate conversation with Laurie Handlers, international bestselling author and sacred sexuality pioneer who found her soulmate at age 67! A lead teacher for the International School of Temple Arts (ISTA) for over 11 years and tantra educator since the late 1970s, Laurie brings decades of experience teaching transformational workshops on sexuality, intimacy, and relationships. Her refreshing perspective on keeping love and passion alive at any age comes from both her professional expertise and her personal journey - proving it's never too late to find extraordinary love.

IN THIS EPISODE YOU'LL DISCOVER:

  • A practical framework for having those "awkward" sex conversations (that actually makes them fun!)
  • How to maintain your sexual energy and attractiveness at any age
  • The secret to staying hot & desirable while dating after 60
  • A revolutionary way to communicate boundaries and desires with partners
  • Why some couples are taking their Tantra practice into BDSM territory
  • The real keys to becoming an "Extraordinary Lover" (it's not what you think!)

EPISODE LINKS *some links below may also be affiliate links

KING & QUEEN OF HEARTS. Leah & Willow's King & Queen of Hearts Intimacy Toolkit is on sale. Buy Now. 10% off Coupon: KINGANDQUEEN10.

THE MALE GSPOT & PROSTATE MASTERCLASS. This is for you if… You’ve heard of epic anal orgasms, & you wonder if it’s possible for you too. Buy Now. Save 20% Coupon PODCAST20.

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LAST 10x LONGER. If you suffer from premature ejaculation, you are not alone, master 5 techniques to cure this stressful & embarrassing issue once and for all. Buy Now. Save 20% Coupon: PODCAST20.

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Leah Piper | More Love Works:

Hello world, it's the Sex Reimagined podcast. I'm Leah Piper.

Dr. Willow Brown:

And I'm Dr. Willow Brown. And today we have the one and only Laurie Handlers, author of two international bestsellers about sex and happiness and just a powerhouse of a woman. She has been leading in the field of sexuality, intimacy, and relationships. for quite a long time, dare I say decades, and she's taught transformational workshops on topics ranging from releasing past emotional trauma, fearless communication, and sacred sexuality since 1978.

Leah Piper | More Love Works:

Yeah, she's awesome. We love Laurie. She's been a friend, acquaintance, and colleague of mine for so many years. I'm tickled to have her on the show. I've been wanting her on the show for a couple of years now. So please tune in, turn on, and fall in love with Laurie Handlers.

Announcer:

Welcome to the Sex Reimagined Podcast, where sex is shame free and pleasure forward. Let's get into the show.

Leah Piper | More Love Works:

Laurie Handlers, it's so nice to have you on the show. Thanks for being a part of it.

Dr. Willow Brown:

Yeah, such an honor to have you on our show, Laurie, and I'm really excited to kind of get to know you and meet you. This is my first meeting with you, and I've heard so many great things. Laurie is one of the lead teachers for ISTA, which is a really, um, reputable and amazing, uh, I don't know, company or organization. Yeah,

Laurie Handlers | Author:

We call it an organism, but it actually is growing. It's growing into an organization. It's becoming more, you know,

Dr. Willow Brown:

Yeah, totally.

Leah Piper | More Love Works:

And

Laurie Handlers | Author:

Yeah.

Leah Piper | More Love Works:

why don't you say what ISTA stands for?

Laurie Handlers | Author:

International school of temple arts.

Leah Piper | More Love Works:

And how long have you been a part of it?

Laurie Handlers | Author:

um, almost 11 years.

Leah Piper | More Love Works:

Wow.

Laurie Handlers | Author:

Yeah.

Dr. Willow Brown:

What's your favorite part about teaching ISTA students?

Laurie Handlers | Author:

Oh, I think it's, I don't know. I love people.

Dr. Willow Brown:

Uh

Laurie Handlers | Author:

Like, that's who I am, I just love people, so whenever there's a new group of people, it could be 30, it could be 40, 50, 60, whatever it is, I'm just so excited that they're there and that they're going to transform in one week into, you know, more open, more blossomed, more who they want to be, who they thought they were and they can't be because of shame or guilt or whatever. I get so excited that I get to see them, know, blossom before my very eyes.

Dr. Willow Brown:

Yeah, so ISTA is a super transformational, for those of you unfamiliar, very transformational tantra teacher training, basically, where you get to blow out the old limiting beliefs, the old shame, the old doubt, the old sexual traumas, all the even, you know, emotional traumas, let all that stuff go and actually, um, give yourself permission and be in a soup of permission to, to really be All that you came to this planet to be, which I think so many people on the, on the planet are really just craving and, and wanting in their lives. And there's, um, not a lot of permission for it. So,

Leah Piper | More Love Works:

don't think you guys are teacher training

Laurie Handlers | Author:

no, it's not teacher training. I want to make a correction there. I have a teacher training program, but it's that it's not ISTA. Um, no, it's really, um, it's empowerment through embodiment. So it's, it really, it's the goal is love, and freedom. And the way in is through eliminating fear, shame and guilt. And so the way in is the body, but you know, it's definitely different from like talk therapy or whatever other people try to do to get free. And it's not exactly Tantra. It's not, I mean, I had a Tantra school before I was part of ISTA. And so that was more about breath, sound and movement. And, um, breathing techniques and yantras and mantras and all that I, Leah knows all that stuff. And I, you know, I even attended a class that she taught. So it's about that. And this is more, this has more, I don't know, it has modern psychology mixed in and, um, pretty radical practices, lots of stuff on boundaries and consent and, uh, And whatever does our desires, most people have, if I ask people, what do they want? They usually know what they don't want,

Leah Piper | More Love Works:

Right.

Laurie Handlers | Author:

don't know how to say, I want to interact with you like this. I want this with you for this 10 minutes or this hour. They do. They're like, duh.

Dr. Willow Brown:

Mm. Mm.

Leah Piper | More Love Works:

Yeah. Would you say that's true of both men and women?

Laurie Handlers | Author:

Um, it's good that you asked that there is a disc. There's a discrepancy. I, I think, uh, most women don't say what they want because they were taught not to like they were taught in sex. We'll talk. We'll say, I think they were taught not to. Because they are afraid of being slut shamed. So they just go, I don't know what I used to do. I don't know. Try something. Let's see. And, um,

Leah Piper | More Love Works:

pet answer. Try something. I'll tell you if I like it. You know, that was like, I, it's all I had access to. I really

Laurie Handlers | Author:

me

Leah Piper | More Love Works:

have the language or the bravery to come up with the language. It felt like it took forever to figure that out.

Laurie Handlers | Author:

Exactly. And for men, I feel like men, well, there's two things. Like women need to feel connected to have sex and men need to have sex. You feel connected.

Leah Piper | More Love Works:

Right.

Laurie Handlers | Author:

So, so, so men want to have sex or at least touch and they, but they, they're, they also, they don't have vocabulary for saying that. They just kind of want to go along with what feels right to the woman so that they can score. They can get, you know, good feelings about it. And so men kind of take the cue. I think that the feminine informs the masculine. So if the, so if the female is like. Duh, the man just is like trying moves. It's like flying blind. We've been flying blind for years trying to connect with each other. And there's no, so, so ISTA to give us people a kind of roadmap. If I meet up with you, here's what I might want. And we have this whole safer sex conversation and

Leah Piper | More Love Works:

Tell us about that. What's the safer sex conversation. That's not something we've really covered.

Laurie Handlers | Author:

Really? So we have it. Okay. So we use different ISTA leads use different acronyms, but I use this one and many of us do our RBDSM. So we, people have heard what BDSM is. So we just, they know what that, you know, this isn't BDSM, but they know those initials, so we put an R in front of it, and I put a T at, and I put a T at the end, and now I heard people are putting a V at the end, so the, the expanded one would be RBDSMTV. So R is relationship status or like, where are you at? What's your sexual preference? Are you in a relationship? If I interacted with you, who else would need to know who would have to be informed? This is who I'm relating to. This is, you know, I'm solo, I'm, I'm single, I'm married, I'm solo poly, I'm mono, you know, I'm whatever I am. And, and so that's R, the whole thing about relationships and who would need to be informed that we interacted. B. What are my boundaries? By the way, you don't have to do it in this order, but this is the way you remember it. Boundaries. I have a boundary. Like I would hold hands with you. I might rub bodies, but fully clothed and no penetrative sex. Um, I, I want to have a penetrative sex with you, but no anal, like whatever the

Dr. Willow Brown:

the

Laurie Handlers | Author:

is, like the boundaries, right? Um, RBD, D is desires. What are my desires with you? I desire to kiss you. I desire to press against you, but I don't desire anything more for our first meeting. Whatever my desires

Dr. Willow Brown:

Yeah.

Laurie Handlers | Author:

are. RBDS. S, sexual history, sexual health. I was tested on these dates for these things and my tests came out clear or positive. We don't say I'm clean because then otherwise it refers to dirty. And we don't say I'm, whatever it could make somebody feel really bad. We don't say that. We just say my tests were clear or my tests weren't clear. I tested positive for herpes, but you know, this. So whatever that is. Also in that could be my pregnancy prevention. What would I do if I was with you and I got pregnant?

Dr. Willow Brown:

Mm hmm. Mm hmm. All the safe sex aspects.

Laurie Handlers | Author:

That's all the sex and what does it mean if I were to have sex with you or interact with you? Is it a one night stand? Would you want to interact with me if I didn't want to see you again? Is it a, am I looking for actually a husband potential? And I'm thinking you could be. Do I, would I dare to say that I'm, I actually did, and I'm married to my husband now, but I'm just, I'm just,'cause we've had this conversation.

Dr. Willow Brown:

hmm. Did you have it the first time?

Laurie Handlers | Author:

first time I said to him, I am looking for somebody. I said, I have lovers in other parts of the world, but I'm looking for somebody when I come home to Phoenix, Arizona, who is there for me? Somebody who I can count on. to, to see me and be with me when I'm home. And when it was his chance to say M, he said, I want the same thing. And I, like I, my heart almost jumped out of my body. Like I

Leah Piper | More Love Works:

I got the chills. That's so yummy!

Dr. Willow Brown:

So, M. M is marriage.

Laurie Handlers | Author:

Meaning.

Dr. Willow Brown:

Meaning,

Laurie Handlers | Author:

it mean if I connected with you? And he said, he said, I want the same thing. And I, I was like, Oh, and we just get, you know. And then I didn't have T but then I put T in later, I added Tea T means trauma response. So if I was having sex with you, and you are likely to have a trauma response, you know this about yourself, what should I do if you dissociate or if you start cowering or if you fawn or you freeze? I don't want to know all your traumas. It's way too soon for me to know that. But I want to know if I'm with you, what should I do? Practically, should I hold your hand? Should I throw water on you? Should I cover you with a heavy blanket? What should I do if you have a trauma response? And then two days ago I was on the, on zoom with, uh, one of my co Leeds, Araminta Barbour. And she said, I added V and I said, what's V? And she said, V is for, some people don't want to interact with people who were vaccinated.

Dr. Willow Brown:

Oh, wow.

Laurie Handlers | Author:

I said to her, Oh my, she said, have you noticed that in your trainings? And I said, yes, absolutely. I said,

Dr. Willow Brown:

huh.

Laurie Handlers | Author:

I had a woman who did not want to be in a puja. I'll

Dr. Willow Brown:

Don't even want to be in a puja.

Laurie Handlers | Author:

doesn't want to be interacting in a touch puja with anyone that has been vaccinated. So I said, amazing. I said, I'm adding.

Leah Piper | More Love Works:

jaw up

Laurie Handlers | Author:

I know.

Leah Piper | More Love Works:

ground.

Dr. Willow Brown:

Well, I know a lot of people who don't want to have intercourse with people who've been

Laurie Handlers | Author:

exactly.

Leah Piper | More Love Works:

sad about hearing this. You know, I don't want to be, I'm, I'm resisting the urge to be judgmental, but I feel sad The lack of connection as a result of feeling that way. I respect it and I feel sad.

Laurie Handlers | Author:

Yeah. I haven't heard. I mean, I haven't heard it a lot, but it's out there. I have heard it. I've heard it and at least I first heard about three years ago in a training I was doing in Honduras. And, um, I have heard it a few other times since. I don't, you know, I, I, I work equally, I don't work as much in the United States. Um, uh, I haven't been, uh, as much as I've been working in Europe and Central and South America and, um, not so much there, but, um, but in the Americas, it's again, in Americas, it's just, it's again, it's like anything else that people are having

Leah Piper | More Love Works:

know what else is surprising about what you're saying is I would have thought it would have been the opposite direction that people who are vaccinated didn't want to be exposed to people who weren't vaccinated and it's actually the opposite.

Dr. Willow Brown:

yeah. It's because of the shedding of

Laurie Handlers | Author:

That's right.

Leah Piper | More Love Works:

What's shedding?

Dr. Willow Brown:

Shedding. Like,

Laurie Handlers | Author:

Well, supposedly, I don't know. I'm not a scientist and no one's telling me the truth anyway, so I don't really, I don't really know. All I know is that it caught again, there's fear and separation,

Leah Piper | More Love Works:

Right. Wow. So the thing about meaning is kind of interesting because I I

Dr. Willow Brown:

Yeah, I like the meaning one.

Leah Piper | More Love Works:

I've got girlfriends who are dating and like what would be meaningful for them and what they get upset about is when they've been in a connection with somebody and they don't provide the appropriate, in their mind, amount of text messages or phone calls or FaceTimes or like ways of interacting between dates, like having some real agreements about what their preferences are around how they want to stay connected in between. And I'm in a relationship, but the first thing that arises for me is how much I don't want to connect in between the interactions. Like, I'm gonna go back to my life, you go back to your life, and that was really fun, and maybe we'll meet again in the future, but um, I don't want the complication of a lot of interaction in

Laurie Handlers | Author:

Yeah.

Dr. Willow Brown:

Okay, let's review it again, because this is definitely by far the most thorough,

Leah Piper | More Love Works:

Yeah, I really

Dr. Willow Brown:

sex conversation, and the acronym is perfect, so R is Relationship, B is

Laurie Handlers | Author:

Be boundaries.

Dr. Willow Brown:

RBD is Desires. S is sex, sexual history, all that. Um, M is meaning, and then we've got T for any traumas, and V for vaccinations.

Laurie Handlers | Author:

T is not any traumas. T is trauma response.

Dr. Willow Brown:

Trauma response, okay.

Laurie Handlers | Author:

I wouldn't look if I

Dr. Willow Brown:

you don't want to know everyone's traumas.

Laurie Handlers | Author:

I, if I had a date with you for the first time, I don't want to know that if I just happened seven, this happened 12. I don't want to know all that until I do want to know it, but I do want to know if I'm with you, what should I do? And I added that because that happened to me.

Dr. Willow Brown:

I wonder if some people might not know how to respond to that, like, I

Laurie Handlers | Author:

They just say they don't know,

Dr. Willow Brown:

Yeah. They just say that.

Laurie Handlers | Author:

but that happened to me. I was with somebody before I met Michael. I was with somebody and, uh, I dated him for about three months, and then I decided that was enough time we would have sex, and we came back to my house, and when he got undressed, his voice changed, like he was a different character, and I went, uh oh, who are you? And he said, I'm, you know, and I went, oh no, get your clothes on, let's have a cup of tea. That's what I did. But I realized that could happen to people more than I know. And so I just went, oh, I'm adding t for trauma response. This person's voice changed into like a porn star or something. I mean, it was really weird.

Leah Piper | More Love Works:

So was that triggering for you or were they going into a trauma response and then for editing who they were once sex came on

Laurie Handlers | Author:

I, I assumed that was a trauma response on his part and I, and I just was like. I said to myself, okay, what should I do here? I'm not having sex with this guy. So I just went and, you know, I thought I knew him, but he was different all of a sudden.

Dr. Willow Brown:

All of a

Laurie Handlers | Author:

And I just said, let's get a cup of tea. We got into my kitchen and we sat and had a cup of tea. And I basically said, I can't date you.

Leah Piper | More Love Works:

Hmm.

Laurie Handlers | Author:

but you could be my client.

Leah Piper | More Love Works:

Okay. So you didn't ask him what was happening for him in that

Laurie Handlers | Author:

I did. He said he didn't know. And I just went, this, this doesn't work for me

Dr. Willow Brown:

Mm.

Leah Piper | More Love Works:

Good

Laurie Handlers | Author:

before we went any further. I was like, nope.

Dr. Willow Brown:

Yeah. Very good catch. Did you end up working with him as a client?

Laurie Handlers | Author:

No, I said,

Dr. Willow Brown:

referring him

Laurie Handlers | Author:

he went to, he worked with a dear friend of mine in New York.

Dr. Willow Brown:

Okay.

Laurie Handlers | Author:

You probably know her, Tini, Tini Dakini. I referred him to her. Yeah.

Leah Piper | More Love Works:

Cool. Wow, that's a really great system.

Dr. Willow Brown:

So tell us, Laurie, I'm curious about, um, you finding this husband, this amazing, incredible man, like later in life, like tell us a little bit about your whole journey with

Leah Piper | More Love Works:

Yeah. What secrets do you

Dr. Willow Brown:

arts and, and like coming to this point in your life where you've got this amazing

Laurie Handlers | Author:

Yeah.

Dr. Willow Brown:

connection.

Laurie Handlers | Author:

Yeah. Well, I, I mean, I was still out there single. I haven't ever been married until now. And, um, and that was fine with me. I mean, I have a great life, so it was just moving right along. And, um, I went to a party one night and I met him and, um, It was billed as a naked dance party. It was, it was held by somebody who was in the Kodoshka. So that's very big here in Arizona. So I went to this party and he was at this party and we met at the wine bar, which is like the kitchen counter, but where the wine was, and we started talking about red wines. I like this. I like this. Try this. Whatever. And then we walked away from each other. There was absolutely no connection or attraction, nothing.

Leah Piper | More Love Works:

No Chemistry? Okay.

Laurie Handlers | Author:

And then five days later, I ran into him again. We were at a bookstore wine bar and the event was for One Taste. So the people who were coming from, I don't know where they were from, but they, they were sent to meet me. In phoenix, and I would help them establish One Taste in Arizona. So that's what this event was. It was a. It was called a Turn On and I was helping them. I invited all these people to it and whatever and I walked in and Michael was there and he said, Hey, didn't I meet you the other night? Are you Laurie? I'm Michael. I went, yeah. And that was, so then they asked for a volunteer to be in the hot seat for the event of the turn on. And so he raised his hand and they put him in the hot seat and they said to him on the hot seat, if you could have anything, what do you want? And he said, I believe there's a goddess in every woman, and that's who I want to meet.

Dr. Willow Brown:

Mm.

Laurie Handlers | Author:

I said, have you told, have you told anyone this? And he said, no. Meantime, I had a visceral response to his. answer. And I said to myself, I'm not letting this guy get out of this room. So, so at the end of the evening, I went up to him, I blocked him from leaving. And I said, you know, that glass of wine we talked about the other night at the party? He said, yeah, I said, we should have that now.

Dr. Willow Brown:

Nice.

Laurie Handlers | Author:

And he said, why? And I said, because I am the goddess. And what you said made me a little wet.

Dr. Willow Brown:

love that. Talk about a pick up line.

Leah Piper | More Love Works:

yummy.

Laurie Handlers | Author:

had a glass of wine. And at the end, and we vetted each other like in 10 minutes. I basically said to him, what have you spent money on that has been for your own personal growth? That's really all I care about.

Leah Piper | More Love Works:

Oh, cool

Dr. Willow Brown:

It's a good

Laurie Handlers | Author:

And he said, Oh, I've done landmark education. I've done SAI seminars. I've done Alison Armstrong. And I went, Oh, this guy, like he could be a contender. He could be a contender. So he said, should we date? And I said, I have to tell you this. He said, should we date? And I said, yes. And I come with a surgeon general's warning and he said, what is that? And I said, you know, that thing on cigarette packs, he said, yes, I know what that is. What is your warning? And I said, I will disrupt your life.

Dr. Willow Brown:

Mm.

Laurie Handlers | Author:

And he said, game on.

Dr. Willow Brown:

Great.

Laurie Handlers | Author:

So that was that. And so we dated for, we were, we were seeing each other for eight years, COVID changed things. I mean, we, we didn't believe in living together and whatever, but then we ended up living together because

Dr. Willow Brown:

Because of COVID.

Laurie Handlers | Author:

COVID, his landlady raised his rent. And I felt like that was just crazy. I had, I have

Leah Piper | More Love Works:

Right, especially during that time.

Laurie Handlers | Author:

Yeah. So he moved in and that was, that was a little rocky, but anyway, then on the, in the eighth year, we were at a wedding in Austin, Texas, and he proposed to me and I was just, he proposed in a porta potty. So that's another whole

Dr. Willow Brown:

OK, now that's not a very romantic place for a proposal.

Leah Piper | More Love Works:

just takes, it just keeps on taking turns. I love this.

Dr. Willow Brown:

unexpected, Laurie.

Laurie Handlers | Author:

But we, so anyway, and then we got married. So we got married, um, in the 10, in like the nine and a half years. And, um, and you know, we're doing, we're doing great. And we teach a course called extraordinary lovers. So, uh, we believe that we believe that. Ordinary to be extraordinary. It just takes a little extra.

Dr. Willow Brown:

Extra.

Laurie Handlers | Author:

Yeah.

Leah Piper | More Love Works:

Yeah, so, so tell us what you're teaching in that class and who comes to that class.

Laurie Handlers | Author:

so couples come to that class. Yeah. Couples come to that class. We will couples. We think couples are an endangered species. We don't think couples get very much support. Like it seems. It seems in our world, and I say our world because I don't know that it's the whole normal world, but in our world, polyamory seems to reign, and people tend to get in a relationship if they are, but then open it, and then they're seeing all these people, and they're managing all these relationships, and um, Okay, I don't know how much support there is for that even, but I know that it takes two and two and two and two, you could be a two with a few different people, but it's still two

Leah Piper | More Love Works:

Yeah.

Laurie Handlers | Author:

when you're connecting and it's not, there's nothing that supports it. Walt Disney told you, told me and you that Prince Charming was going to come and ride us off into the sunset. And then we'd live happily ever after, but there's no skills supporting that. You learned algebra, geometry, I did. Earth science, foreign language, social studies. I didn't learn one thing about how to stay in love. Not one,

Leah Piper | More Love Works:

How to stay in love.

Laurie Handlers | Author:

not one thing, nothing. No fairy tale provided me with anything that told me what happily ever after would look like or how I would get there. It's a rant that I have about, you know, the Disney world.

Dr. Willow Brown:

Not doing us any services, young girls especially.

Leah Piper | More Love Works:

We don't have a ton of role models who are doing extraordinary

Dr. Willow Brown:

No,

Laurie Handlers | Author:

No, we don't. We don't. They're getting, like, let's take J Lo, for example, who's gotten married and divorced about 12 times. I mean, it's crazy. So we started, we sat down one day and we said, okay, what are we doing that's different from any relationship we've ever been in?

Dr. Willow Brown:

hmm. That's

Laurie Handlers | Author:

And we started noting it down and so couples come who are in a kind of range who are newish and want to get started on the right foot. Not like there's a right and wrong, but like in a

Leah Piper | More Love Works:

down a good foundation.

Laurie Handlers | Author:

a powerful way. Yeah,

Dr. Willow Brown:

hmm.

Laurie Handlers | Author:

couples come who love each other and cannot stop arguing. They just love each other, but there's some value clash that they just keep arguing about. Right now, I, uh, we're working with a couple who politically, you know, she voted for Harris, he voted for Trump, and they can't even,

Dr. Willow Brown:

relationships.

Laurie Handlers | Author:

huge challenge. I'm sure that's, I'm sure that's very, it's big, it's widespread. And then, um, so they can't stop arguing, but they adore each other. Like I, I also know a couple who they keep score, like they keep score on each other. Like,

Dr. Willow Brown:

Yes.

Laurie Handlers | Author:

anyway. Then there's couples who have been together for a while. We've had couples who have been together 50 years, 40 years, 30 years, 20 years. They adore each other, but they've lost their spark. It's neutralized. There's no polarity left, and so they're best friends. They're never going to leave each other, but they're just like

Dr. Willow Brown:

They're not having sex.

Laurie Handlers | Author:

Yeah, they're not having sex, or if they are, it's like routine, it's boring. There was an article, in 2004, there was an article on the cover of Newsweek, and it was called, and it showed one person with the remote, and the other person in the bed with the, with a laptop, and they called them D.I.N.S., Double Income No Sex

Leah Piper | More Love Works:

Wow.

Dr. Willow Brown:

yeah.

Laurie Handlers | Author:

And I said, Oh my God, my work has to combat DINS. You know, like I, I probably still have it in my file cabinet. Like I went, Oh my God, this is so sad. So we, those people come and they all, you know, they're all together in a class though, all three categories. And there's probably more. Um, but those are basically who come to us, couples who want to like have a different, um, trajectory.

Dr. Willow Brown:

And then what are some of the like, like important, very crucial things that they learn that turn things around for them? Maybe just like one or two

Laurie Handlers | Author:

yeah, we teach a, we teach a ritual and a form. It's a ritualistic form of communication.

Dr. Willow Brown:

Mm.

Laurie Handlers | Author:

how can I say anything to you and it not be then not be retribution later on if I said, and also there's no, that's just like when you, you know, like there isn't, you can't, there's in this ritual, yeah, in this ritual, one person gets to say the thing and only one thing.

Dr. Willow Brown:

Oh, one thing at a time. Yes.

Laurie Handlers | Author:

Yeah, and the other person get doesn't retaliate the other person gets to acknowledge and listen to it deeply and then ask questions and clarify how to so it's like, but it's got a ritual format to it.

Dr. Willow Brown:

Mm.

Laurie Handlers | Author:

And, um, so that's one of the things and,

Leah Piper | More Love Works:

you'd use to ritualize it? What ritualizes that kind of conversation?

Laurie Handlers | Author:

uh, we put it in a bubble

Dr. Willow Brown:

Mm.

Laurie Handlers | Author:

it has a format. It has a format of how it goes. And so there isn't arguing. And I always say to people, do you want to argue? Do you want to be, do you want to keep arguing and be right? Or do you want to be in love?

Leah Piper | More Love Works:

Right.

Laurie Handlers | Author:

You know? So. Um, so that's one thing that we teach. We also teach, um, how to, we teach, we teach touch

Leah Piper | More Love Works:

Uh huh.

Laurie Handlers | Author:

because the same thing, I feel like what we said before, Leah, what you said about, um, you just said, try something I might

Dr. Willow Brown:

Mm hmm.

Laurie Handlers | Author:

we teach touch, um, because it's funny. I, when I first met Michael, I said to him, where did you learn to touch? I said, I'm in the Tantra world already 20 years. No one's ever touched me the way you touch me. He said, well, after I got divorced, he said, I Googled it. He said, I didn't know how I was going to get with a woman again. He said, I didn't know what I was going to do. I could get them, but then I didn't know what to do with them once.

Dr. Willow Brown:

How do I, how do I keep them? How do I make them feel good? Yeah.

Laurie Handlers | Author:

there's the, there's a, there's some touch aspects that bring it to the conscious awareness, like touch like this.

Dr. Willow Brown:

Yeah.

Laurie Handlers | Author:

It's not just breath, sound and movement. Like it's really like consciously touched this way.

Leah Piper | More Love Works:

Yeah, like I know for me, I needed to, I needed examples to try if it was just left up to my imagination. I didn't really have a lot to draw on. Um, and so to be able to have some methods to try so that I could feel where I also had a job to do. I had to pay attention. I had to be present. I had to track sensation. I had to see what else fired when someone tickled the side of my waist. Where else did I feel it? Because it turns out I felt it expand.

Dr. Willow Brown:

in your toes.

Leah Piper | More Love Works:

especially if it was touched in a certain way, but I didn't know that the side of my waist was so sensitive,

Dr. Willow Brown:

It

Leah Piper | More Love Works:

I didn't know how much I love pressure on my hip, you know? So it's like being able to learn what I like, you discover that you have a map and when you can articulate the map, then you can give the map to people and then those people win with you and if they're winning, you're winning. And it really becomes

Dr. Willow Brown:

Way more fun. Yeah, it is really shocking how many couples really don't know how to touch each other.

Laurie Handlers | Author:

they don't.

Dr. Willow Brown:

again, not taught in any education anywhere, so something that we have to go out and learn. So kudos to Michael for going out and looking it up on Google, like just figuring it out on his own. Well done.

Laurie Handlers | Author:

And that's what we teach. How to map the body, like how to actually map the body and, and to take notes. You know, like to actually be the, I call him, I used to call him, you know, Frankenstein. Like he was, like he would take notes on what worked with me and how it worked. And then he, that's what he teaches people how to do that and how to actually read what the body's saying when you touch it.

Leah Piper | More Love Works:

That's another big skill is learning attunement and learning how to read energy and when energy is invisible to you Well, how do you begin that process? I remember, you know early on the whole energy work when I started learning tantra I'm like all these fucking people who know this energy thing. I'm totally faking it. I don't know what the fuck i'm doing I don't see what they see. I don't feel what they feel. I believe they're experiencing it But I am like over here feeling so insecure About like i'm really just sort of imagining it's working But what's the proof that this energy transmission thing was working? And it wasn't until I started to look at body language, like you can see if someone's body is opening or if their body is closing, and then it was that watching what is opening and closing in someone's body language that helped me read, okay, and just beyond that is their energy. And I, if I could watch the body language, then I could start to see the energy and it changed everything. Then I could tap into that. And then attunement became really fun and interesting and easier. And it wasn't this big mystery that only some people knew.

Dr. Willow Brown:

Right. Yeah.

Laurie Handlers | Author:

Also from the Tantra meets BDSM from the, from the work that I do with OM and Michael, of course, has OM a few times and stuff like also teaching people containment.

Leah Piper | More Love Works:

Yes.

Laurie Handlers | Author:

like OM says, you know, contain no penetration before containment, like the body opens after it feels, Calm and safe and grounded and connected,

Dr. Willow Brown:

Mm hmm.

Laurie Handlers | Author:

like no one was taught these things. These are like such important skills and they should have been taught in school, I

Dr. Willow Brown:

they seem so basic. Like, they seem so fundamental. You know, so that, that once you know them and once you're sort of adept at delivering them and be, being with somebody in that way, um, it seems just so obvious. You know, but it is remarkable how little of us know, know these tricks to the trade.

Laurie Handlers | Author:

No.

Leah Piper | More Love Works:

And for those of you, um, if you're a longtime listener, you, you know, who Om Rupani is. We've mentioned him many times. We've had him on twice. We'll put his episode in the show notes as a reminder. Wonderful friend and colleague. So tell us a little bit about your work with Om.

Laurie Handlers | Author:

My work with Om, well, let's see, when Om was my student for about 15 years, I actually brought him to that class in New York where I met you and that was an after, I think you needed men. So, so Alan Steinfeld called me up and he said, you want to come to Charles and Leah's class and how many men do you have? So I said, I can bring two or three. Maybe four. So I did. So I brought Om

Leah Piper | More Love Works:

Yeah.

Laurie Handlers | Author:

and, and, um, so he was my student. He did all my, he did every level of my Tantra. I had like three levels of Tantra at the time. He studied with Barbara Corrales. Then he came to study with you. And, um, then he started going to Dark Odysseys. He calls me, we were, we became friends. Actually, it was Teenie's idea. So Teenie, myself, and Om used to go out and drink red wine together and just laugh and laugh and laugh and laugh. But before that, Om was like my, he was really my most difficult, one of my most difficult students.

Leah Piper | More Love Works:

Is that

Dr. Willow Brown:

I could see him being a difficult student

Laurie Handlers | Author:

very challenging, very challenging. He also, he didn't make eye contact, he's just sit cross legged in the room and look up. And then he would say, you know, so. I don't know about this Tantra stuff, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. He would say something and I would go ouch... Like, what is it you want here? What are you asking? And he would, then he would, you know.

Leah Piper | More Love Works:

pontificate?

Laurie Handlers | Author:

Yeah, no, yeah, sometimes and sometimes he would just like keep going and asking this, this, you know, this absurd, like

Dr. Willow Brown:

Like off

Laurie Handlers | Author:

crazy question, unanswerable. And I would say to him, I don't know what you're doing, what you're asking for here. I'm just moving on. You know, like I wouldn't even. But then we became friends, and I saw where all of it was coming from, like, when we got close, and we've been, I mean, he gave me away at my wedding, like, he's like, really,

Dr. Willow Brown:

You're

Laurie Handlers | Author:

one of my besties. So, he goes to Dark Odyssey, and he calls me up, and he says, I'm starting to get into kink, and I'm like, yeah, you're crazy, like. And I have it, I have to say, my come from was I had it that people who were into kink didn't feel and so they needed strong

Dr. Willow Brown:

handed.

Laurie Handlers | Author:

sensation in order to, uh, uh, interrupt numbness or this is the story that I made up. So, so, so he calls me and I go, yeah, I think you're crazy, but yeah, whatever. Then one day he calls me to say. I moved to Arizona. I leave New York. I moved to Arizona. And he calls me, goes, I think you should come to New York. And, and he just, he talks New York and have a session with me. I said, why? And he says, because I can show you how you and your eye gazing, making people feel bliss with eye gazing. I can show you how to have bliss with spanking. Laughter.

Leah Piper | More Love Works:

Challenge accepted! Yeah.

Dr. Willow Brown:

I'll book a flight. I'll be right there.

Laurie Handlers | Author:

I go, well, I'm going, I'm going to come into the new life expo, you know, next month. So I'll come a couple of days early and I'll take you up on it. So I go to New York, I have a session with him. Now mind you, he's my orgasmic meditation partner. So for years we've been doing oming practice together. He's literally the only person that I ever really omed with. I had a few other experiences, but he's the only person I trusted with my body who respected me. Like I wasn't going to just like lay down at one taste and own with anybody. So, so I get to his place. It's the morning. He says to me, okay, let's have our session. Take a shower. I'll take it. I'm going to take a shower. So then. I come out and he blindfolds me and he ties me up to this ring. He has, he has like a one room apartment in New York, he and Jennifer. And they have, he has this ring hanging from the ceiling. And then they have like this loft bed thing that he built. And I'm on the couch, on the sleeper couch. So I'm now, I'm tied up to this thing in this one room. and blindfolded and he whispers in my ear, I'm not going to hurt you. And so, okay, I relax. And then he gives me sensation play and it was hot. It was good. You know, it was wonderful. And then afterwards he said to me, do you want to Om? So I said, yes. So we Omed, which for people who don't know what that is, Orgasmic Meditation is touching a woman in a particular way to, it doesn't necessarily bring about orgasmic can or not. It's to feel sensation.

Leah Piper | More Love Works:

clitoris.

Laurie Handlers | Author:

On the clitoris. Yeah. And so we Om, and then I say to him, okay, I got to go to the New, New Life Expo. I got to get dressed. So I get up, I get in a cab and I go uptown and my best friend calls me and says, how was your session with Om? And I go, well, let's just say that my ass is really sitting in this taxi cab seat. I am so grounded. I'm just feeling so much sensation in my body. I'm feeling great. And she says, you think you might wanna incorporate it into the rest? You know, I said I, it's just too soon to tell.

Leah Piper | More Love Works:

I've only had one experience. Yeah.

Laurie Handlers | Author:

And so then Om calls me, I know a few weeks later and he says, I think we should teach together, And I go, um, okay. Come to Phoenix. And we'll try something with the people that I know here. So that's where it got born. It got born, like in my Tantra room,

Leah Piper | More Love Works:

And this is your, this is the Tantra Meets BDSM course. Yeah.

Dr. Willow Brown:

Did, um, did he start you out with containment? With that first session? No. That was long

Laurie Handlers | Author:

much later. This is a later development. I mean, we, this course has progressed,

Dr. Willow Brown:

right.

Laurie Handlers | Author:

um, for, I try and think I knew Michael at the time, so it's gotta be. About maybe around 10, 11 years ago, when we started playing with the idea and the notion of it, and then it came into fruition, like, before my very eyes in my home, and then we took it to New York and we took it to Montreal. Those were the first a couple of places and it wasn't what it is now. Then COVID happened and we did, did it online. We did a level one online and then we did a level two online. And people, that was interesting because people said that they liked it because they could close their screen on Zoom and they could do really kinky things with each other that they might not do in front of other

Dr. Willow Brown:

Uh, like in a classroom setting,

Laurie Handlers | Author:

And, but then, but now. It's, uh, we're not doing it in the U. S. anymore because we feel like it's too politically incorrect.

Dr. Willow Brown:

Hmm.

Leah Piper | More Love Works:

Really?

Laurie Handlers | Author:

Yeah, it's way too chargey for, um, for,

Leah Piper | More Love Works:

Americans?

Laurie Handlers | Author:

yeah, for, for social justice warrior types.

Leah Piper | More Love Works:

right. Wow.

Laurie Handlers | Author:

It's very chargey, and, and, I mean, There's a lot of people that just couldn't handle it and shouldn't handle it. And, um,

Leah Piper | More Love Works:

Yeah. Who would you say is good for this type of course? And who isn't? What do you already have under your belt before you walk into the classroom, I

Laurie Handlers | Author:

oh, you should have, you should have, you should know the RBDSMT conversation we just had. You should know that inside and out. You should be able to just articulate that

Leah Piper | More Love Works:

You should have answers for those.

Laurie Handlers | Author:

Yeah, you should know who you are. And, and you should know that you're going to be exploring, uh, your edges, and along with other people's edges, and that, um, you're probably not in the norm. Although kinky clothing is very fashionable now, and collars and

Leah Piper | More Love Works:

Mm hmm.

Laurie Handlers | Author:

that is not the practice.

Leah Piper | More Love Works:

Mm hmm.

Laurie Handlers | Author:

And, um, yeah, it's not for the, it's not for the frail at heart. I don't, I feel like you just some Tantra you should have. Maybe you should have one taste. Maybe you should have, uh, other,

Dr. Willow Brown:

been on the path for a little while, it sounds like. Like, you should have done some good healing on yourself. Some, some, healed your own traumas and like, been in practice with some kind of sacred sexual arts.

Leah Piper | More Love Works:

I think even beyond that is you should have, you should have the ability to take responsibility for yourself to, uh,

Laurie Handlers | Author:

hold on. It's not going to sound here, but I'm ringing my bell anyway for that. 100 percent responsibility for who you are.

Dr. Willow Brown:

Yeah.

Leah Piper | More Love Works:

the experiences you wanna have and you, and, and, um, and be willing and have a voice to be able to stop things when you get in over your head.

Laurie Handlers | Author:

Yes,

Leah Piper | More Love Works:

And not, and not, uh, be a victim in how you blame other people for the things that you're not being responsible with. So if you have a victim consciousness, please don't apply, you

Laurie Handlers | Author:

Don't apply. However, I will say I have seen some of what we do heal traumas in like no other way I've ever seen.

Dr. Willow Brown:

Some of,

Laurie Handlers | Author:

trauma.

Leah Piper | More Love Works:

cathartic component to the world of BDSM and, and these kinky pursuits that actually go deeper than just the pleasure potential that's available. It actually really allows someone to encounter those parts of themselves that may be unconscious. And when you discover and make peace with that. Um, how you hold it stops being tight and filled with shame and grief and guilt and actually has some space to breathe and there's something really, I don't know, I would, I would elevate it to a holy experience when you kind of come to terms with this thing that you might have judged and when you bring it out and explore it and see you don't have to judge it, there's even a safe place to pursue it. Fucking liberation.

Dr. Willow Brown:

yeah, it's pretty intriguing. I think, I think if you have an interest in psychology, interest in people, interest in healing, then you would have some interest in, in this, even if you weren't, like, in the sexuality. Um, you know, if you weren't in that field, you would still have interest in, in the, the, the shadow elements that can come to light through this type of work. I mean, I've seen people have some of the biggest, most cathartic healing moments of their life through being tied up, being bonded, being contained and, you know, going to places in their body and their Soma. And I think it's because we store so much. Of those, um, you know, self doubt and self criticism, all of that, we store it in our tissues and it's way off and way down in our first and second chakras. So to, to really dig that stuff up and to bring it to light can be such a phenomenal experience and also can be scary in the moment, you know, and even afterwards can have like these waves, these after waves of like, shit, vulnerability, hangover, was that okay? Did I, you know, is that all right? But then there's like an integration process that happens after that, which then you do realize you're more than okay.

Leah Piper | More Love Works:

Have either of you seen Baby Girl yet with Nicole

Dr. Willow Brown:

No, but I want to watch it. Yeah,

Leah Piper | More Love Works:

Matt and I just went and saw it the other night, and it's really good. I'm like, Dominatrix's work is gonna go up after this movie because they did a great job of normalizing these hidden desires that we are afraid that we're ashamed of, you know, and so she's in, you know, married for 20 plus years to teenage daughter. She's the CEO. She's this brilliant mind and she's starving. And there's a part of her that wants to be humiliated in sex. She's never had an orgasm with her husband. She watches porn secretly so that she can get off. And, you know, then there's this young intern. And there's, the first time she notices him, he's able to get control over this runaway dog. that was really scaring her on the streets of New York. And that was like, she saw this thing and it captured her, um, of someone was able to be able to control this crazy dog. And so there's a part of her you can tell, like, she so wants to, like, not have to be in charge, to have someone else be in charge of her will. And there's some really great, beautiful, vulnerable scenes that are cringeworthy, but if you've stepped your toe into any of this world, you could so relate to like, I don't, I don't know if I want what I say I want, you know, like I'm scared to want what I want and you can totally feel that. It's very visceral. Um, and so it's also sort of a gentle. step into that world. I thought they did a

Laurie Handlers | Author:

So good. Good. I didn't know about it. Thank you for that. Well, that's what that word that, so that's what this course is all about. And then some, and, um, we've had, I mean, I've had a riot. It's changed my sex life. It's changed my satisfaction level. Um, it's

Leah Piper | More Love Works:

How so? Could you, would you mind sharing that? How, what has it changed in your sex life?

Laurie Handlers | Author:

Well, in, um, so in, in Tantra meets BDSM, we give people a, we give them numbers so that they can say what their pain threshold is. So they tell people on a one to 10 scale and, um, and I say that, uh, pain is the sweet spot of pain is at number six, seven, eight. Not when you're getting to 9 or 10 in pain, it's too much. So if someone's saying 10, that's like saying red, calling red, your safe word, like, no, that's too much. I don't, I don't want any more. So, um, so Michael and I have taken one of the things we do is we have pleasure, um, numbers also. So we'll say pain and that, so we'll. a little bit of pain intensifies the greatest pleasure.

Leah Piper | More Love Works:

Right.

Laurie Handlers | Author:

So a spank or a pinch or a bite or something in the, in the moments of a pleasurable sensation can amplify it. And especially if it's surprise. So we have augmented it in the couple's work to say pain numbers and pleasure numbers. So that's, and so here's, for example, like if a man is learning ejaculate ejaculation choice, then if he's with his partner and his partner knows what number he's at, like if he's at a six, that would probably be a time to Maintain, but if he gets to a seven, she might want to back off a little bit, like

Leah Piper | More Love Works:

down.

Laurie Handlers | Author:

slow him down. So we've augmented the numbers for also pleasure so that we could judge where each other is at in terms of close to ejaculation or more orgasm or whatever. So we've, uh, we've implemented some pain into pleasure and we've also implemented two sets of numbers. That's just, that's quick. I mean, there's a lot, but those are some quick ones that people can implement right away. And people are like, I don't want to call out numbers. I, it's going to distract me. And I'm

Leah Piper | More Love Works:

I'm like, that's the easiest way not to get distracted. It's better than having to describe what you feel. Describe your pain or describe your pleasure. That takes so many more words.

Dr. Willow Brown:

Yes. You can

Leah Piper | More Love Works:

Yeah, numbers just quick. It's easy to identify and Spit out and doesn't take as much of the left hemisphere of the brain, which has to make up language so that your likelihood of you staying in the right hemisphere of the brain, which is where all the feeling is happening is, is greater when you have just a number to articulate. Yeah.

Laurie Handlers | Author:

Yeah. The same thing about the safer sex conversation. People go, Oh, that's going to drop my spontaneity. Well, believe me, this is the new, like the safer sex con conversation is the new hot. It's the new seduction. It's much better than the spontaneity, which leaves people wondering for a month if they're pregnant or if they got a sexually transmitted infection. So

Leah Piper | More Love Works:

Now tell us a little bit, because I know one of the things, um, that you talk about is women at an older age finding love. And there's so many women in my orbit who are frustrated with being single. And, you know, half the time they're trying to convince themselves that they don't care, that there'll be okay if they never meet somebody. Um, and then, and so it's almost like they're, it's like, they're always trying to figure out how do I meet that person? It's okay if I never do, but the longing is still there. What's your advice? What's your insight

Laurie Handlers | Author:

Well, first of all, the first sentence is true. Um, they don't have to convince themselves that they'll be okay if they don't find somebody. They are okay and they will be okay whether or whether or not they find somebody like, like people. So I believe that people have to be their own beloved. That's the whole purpose for studying Tantra to begin with. Although I didn't know it, I, that was a byproduct of studying Tantra, but that's the, I mean, for me, when I first started studying Tantra. I, the, I was shocked that like so much inside me resolved, like who I am, that I live and breathe and that I love became much more transpersonal and my love for myself became more personal.

Leah Piper | More Love Works:

Mm hmm.

Laurie Handlers | Author:

It just, that was like really a byproduct of studying Tantra for like two years or something, which is a real plug for Tantra. Um, so they will be okay now. Listen, women's biggest fear is that they won't be desirable,

Leah Piper | More Love Works:

Mm hmm.

Laurie Handlers | Author:

you know, it's that they won't be

Leah Piper | More Love Works:

won't be chosen.

Laurie Handlers | Author:

they won't be chosen. They won't be, look, I chose this guy, you know, like I said, I'm not letting him out of the room. I couldn't believe what he's, I've never been that aggressive. Really I'm not, especially if I really thought I liked somebody. I just, I've never blocked someone's, you know,

Dr. Willow Brown:

From leaving the door. Yeah.

Leah Piper | More Love Works:

Would you use the word aggressive or assertive?

Laurie Handlers | Author:

feel like I'm very assertive. I just feel, I used to teach assertiveness training before all this sexuality stuff. Yeah. In this. In the seventies, I think I used to teach assertiveness training to women and men. It isn't that it's just that I, I had to be myself. Love has to be tantamount. That's what I think. So I walk around like I'm hot. I walk around like I'm. You know, I'm, I'm attractive. I walk around like I'm just as I'm not dispensable. I'm, I'm not a, you know, I'm not a throwaway lighter or something. I'm a person that has something to say, something to offer. And my, as long as I'm moving and working my own sexual energy in my body, I'm, I'm hot. I'm still hot. It doesn't matter what a number says. So I would say to them that what they need is, yeah. to have enough tantra that they know how to work their sexual energy and move it through their body on a regular constant basis. And these are free. They work. They should give

Dr. Willow Brown:

you. You should, yes, you should put them on your own body.

Laurie Handlers | Author:

they, you should touch yourself and run sexual energy and have as many orgasms as you possibly and give yourself what you're waiting for somebody else to give you.

Dr. Willow Brown:

That's

Laurie Handlers | Author:

And then when you do that and you walk around like you have done that. You're noticed, you're, you're incredible, you're powerful, and, and you will meet someone. You also have to put out there that you want to meet someone, you have to let people know that you want to meet someone, you have to network, all the things. Don't be surprised if Mr. Right doesn't look exactly. Or, or, or do exactly what you wrote on some checklist. You know, I had one of those checklists.

Dr. Willow Brown:

Or Mrs. Wright, for that matter. Yeah. Yeah.

Laurie Handlers | Author:

don't, they don't look like some image that we have in our head. They're real

Leah Piper | More Love Works:

Disney thing. You're, you know, you have to let go of Prince Charming.

Dr. Willow Brown:

I, well, I love, I love this piece that you're bringing forward because it is so true and it is such a paramount piece of Tantra is to the, the beloved within is the true beloved and connection to source and spirit and the infinite and all of that is a big part of the journey and you know that the person that Leah described is pretty much sitting here right here with you guys. That's me, you know, and also I look around at that. Yeah. My friends, so I've got a lot of friends in that, in that area as well, and clients as well, who are, you know, really longing, don't know how to let go of the longing, you know, looking for the one and looking for that completion outside of themselves. At the same time, I have a lot of people who are, who are married, who are in partnership, who have been in partnership for a long time and still, you know, the, the beloved within is still the primary, like, doesn't matter if you're in something or not in something, longing or, or fine, you know, not longing, it's all about turning whatever it is you desire on the outside to the inside. And it is a practice. It's a constant practice. Because I've been doing it for years, and I'm at a new level of doing it, you know? Because the longing gets stronger as you get older.

Laurie Handlers | Author:

That's wonderful. Well, I was 67 when I met him. So, you know, I was doing it for quite some time. I didn't find Tantra until I was 49, 50. So I was doing all the other stuff before that, you know, I was just like having sports sex and doing things that I, you know, it just, I was really, I was conscious. of something else, but I didn't know what the something else was. So I was just doing the thing. And I was sleeping around, and I was, you know, I was having a lot of sex, and I was popular, and I was going out, and I was just like, it was so empty. And then I found Tantra, and it filled up. I filled up. I filled myself up. I filled up everything, and then I was walking around full, instead of walking around empty, looking for something to fill me, like there wasn't anything needed.

Leah Piper | More Love Works:

Right. it was a very, it's a different position to come from.

Laurie Handlers | Author:

And then there's something else I want to say, which is we're starting to do Extraordinary Lovers for Singles.

Dr. Willow Brown:

Mm.

Laurie Handlers | Author:

And we used to mix it. We used to have a couples and singles in the class. Why do we do it for singles? Because they could be in a great place, but then they meet someone and they fuck it all up the first in the first conversation. Like, so we're doing it for singles so that they know how to have them exactly just like Tantra, their practices of how to be when you meet someone. don't know if you know this. I used to work at Landmark Education. So I used to like sell, I was the enrollment manager, the top enrollment manager in the world. So I used to sell the Landmark Forum. And um, I had a small center. I was in Washington DC, but my statistics were better than New York, Tokyo, London, you know, whatever. So I used to tell the people that ran those, those guest nights, don't act weird with people. Just

Dr. Willow Brown:

Act normal.

Laurie Handlers | Author:

Love them right where they are.

Leah Piper | More Love Works:

Yeah.

Laurie Handlers | Author:

And then they registered to do the landmark for me. So to me, it's the same thing. Enrollment is enrollment. If I meet somebody and I screw it up in my first conversation with them or 10 conversations down the road,

Dr. Willow Brown:

because you're

Laurie Handlers | Author:

I'm too

Dr. Willow Brown:

or something. Yeah.

Laurie Handlers | Author:

too inauthentic, I'm too whatever, don't act weird with people.

Dr. Willow Brown:

Rule number one

Leah Piper | More Love Works:

Yeah. Keep it simple. Don't be a weirdo the first time you have a conversation.

Laurie Handlers | Author:

pretend, you know, one of the best, one of my biggest things that's been watched on Instagram. One of my biggest reels that's been watched is where they say, what would you say to somebody? What advice would you give to somebody? And I say, be yourself, like be who you truly are. Don't give somebody a taste of something that you can't

Dr. Willow Brown:

follow through on.

Leah Piper | More Love Works:

Right.

Dr. Willow Brown:

good advice, gold.

Leah Piper | More Love Works:

So tell us about your book.

Laurie Handlers | Author:

oh yeah, I have two. I have, they're both named the same thing, sex and happiness, but there are two different versions. So sex and happiness number one is the tantric laws of intimacy and everything we're saying right now that we just talked about is in that book. Please yourself. You know, be real, be authentic, honor your anger, express yourself, uh, be content with yourself when you meet someone there, they're a mirror. What, who do you want to mirror you the most of the time? You know, that's who you choose to be with. Anyway, so that's, and it's, it was, you know, it's a bestseller and it's all about tantra, but it's um, I demystified it. Like, I don't use lots of Sanskrit words in there. There's no Maha Mudra and you know, whatever. I don't, I don't name the chakras in Sanskrit. I just made it for like standard American audiences to be able to decode and demystify Tantra. So that's what the first book is about. It's the, it's 10 laws, very easy laws to live by. And, um, the second book, uh, is sex and happiness. It gets better with age.

Dr. Willow Brown:

I love that subtitle.

Leah Piper | More Love Works:

That's a great title.

Laurie Handlers | Author:

And that's, that's all new laws except one is seven laws and boundaries is in both books. So when you're younger and you need boundaries about saying no or yes to sex or sexual practices or whatever, when you're older, you need boundaries about people trying to get your money.

Dr. Willow Brown:

Oh.

Laurie Handlers | Author:

There's a scam a day that comes across my phone, text, or my emails, or somebody trying to get, people take advantage of older people because they don't have the same kind of discernment there. So, you need boundaries, not only about your body, but also boundaries about money. Um, but otherwise, you know, I, I was on a boat in Greece and I was reading a book that turned out to be terrible. So I threw the book down and I said, what am I going to do for four hours going from island to island? So I said, okay, I'll start to write a book about everything that I've risked and done different. From about the time I turned 60 to now. And so I started listing things and it fell into six other categories. So things like. Break your routines, shake things up. Old, when people age, they get into these routines and they think that's safety and they feel good about it and they're worried about their memory so they just get routinized and that ages you. Actually trying new things, risking new things, having new adventures keeps you young. Yeah, so that's an example of it, um,

Dr. Willow Brown:

That's in the book.

Laurie Handlers | Author:

Yeah, all these new, new laws for living.

Leah Piper | More Love Works:

and we'll have links to the book in the show notes, so pay attention to that. And then you have a free gift for our audience. Master Your Boundaries Workbook.

Laurie Handlers | Author:

Yeah, see, I'm big on boundaries. If I have two chapters and two separate books, why? Why? Okay, they say we teach the best what we need to learn, right?

Leah Piper | More Love Works:

Mm hmm.

Laurie Handlers | Author:

Who needed to learn boundaries?

Dr. Willow Brown:

boundaries. Well, who doesn't need to learn boundaries? I mean.

Laurie Handlers | Author:

had no idea what boundaries were because boundaries didn't occur in my household growing up at all. My parents just barged into my room whenever they wanted. They just talked over people. I mean, it was so I had no, I did the same things. So I had to learn. Boundaries. So, um, Master Your Boundaries workbook is a free workbook for anybody who isn't sure what their boundaries are or why they should have boundaries. Some people think they need to be angry to assert a boundary and you don't, although often people are because most of us discover our boundaries once they're trespassed. And we get angry, but you don't have to be angry to have them. You can just have boundaries.

Leah Piper | More Love Works:

Yeah,

Laurie Handlers | Author:

So it's a workbook. If they go to my website, www.laurihandlers.Com, they can just find the link right there that, and I can give you a direct link. They can click on it and they can get a free workbook on whatever they need to learn about setting boundaries. They don't need to be justified. They don't need to be, you know, there doesn't have to be this big emotional buildup. Just saying no is a complete sentence.

Dr. Willow Brown:

Yeah.

Leah Piper | More Love Works:

We'll have that link in the show notes to everybody. Thank you, Laurie, so much for being here. This is such a delight.

Dr. Willow Brown:

Yeah. Such a

Laurie Handlers | Author:

are welcome.

Dr. Willow Brown:

yeah.

Laurie Handlers | Author:

It's been my pleasure. I really enjoyed this so much. I enjoyed all the topics we covered and I enjoyed both of you a lot. Thank you.

Leah Piper | More Love Works:

Yeah. Big,

Dr. Willow Brown:

So great. We'll have to have you back on soon.

Leah Piper | More Love Works:

All right, everybody. We have the dish up next, so do not go away. We'll be right back.

Announcer:

Now, our favorite part, the dish.

Leah Piper | More Love Works:

That was so fun.

Dr. Willow Brown:

Yeah, Laurie's a gem. What a wonderful woman, and I just love how devoted to the path she's been for so long and, you know, her faith and her trust and in the process that, that it is. It's really cool to, to witness someone.

Leah Piper | More Love Works:

God, I met her when I was just a tantra puppy. I'll never forget it. It was like 2007 or 8 or something like that and we were teaching in New York for the first time and we went to the expos that she was talking about and had a booth and we're selling products and handing out flyers for the New York event and her and I, our booths were right next to each other. So we got to talking and she was selling these really cool things that she was importing from India of these like. Petite cloths, and they were, that you put on the wall, they weren't like the size of a tapestry, I would say like an eighth of a size of a tapestry, and they would be Kama Sutra lovemaking positions. And so then I bought a bunch of them from her wholesale and sold them, and I've got a couple friends that still have them, so it's always fun when I go over to Pamela's, I'm like, ah, I gave that to you, and I, all that, all the history there is so sweet and so rich, and I loved, I loved all the little pieces she gave us today.

Dr. Willow Brown:

Oh my god, it was so fun to hear, like, her journey with Om, and like, how it used to be this kind of sulking student in the corner who challenged her, and now they're teaching BDSM meets Tantra together.

Leah Piper | More Love Works:

Well, and now he's the most gracious student. You know, he is not a difficult student anymore. I've seen him in action, and he's very gracious as a student. Very quiet still.

Dr. Willow Brown:

come a long way. Yeah. Yeah.

Leah Piper | More Love Works:

So fun. I think she's doing really good work out there.

Dr. Willow Brown:

hmm.

Leah Piper | More Love Works:

What else do we say on this dish?

Dr. Willow Brown:

I don't know.

Leah Piper | More Love Works:

I want to dish her up, you know, it's like, um, I think it'd be fun to actually go to her extraordinary lovers class

Dr. Willow Brown:

Mm hmm.

Leah Piper | More Love Works:

um, it's always fun to see what people are doing, the waves and the breakthroughs they're creating around communication that are helping people get closer. In their relationships, I think, especially in longer term relationships, it's just so easy to get humdrum, the daily stuff, to forget to have deep conversations, you know, where all you ever talk about is what's for dinner and who picked up the dry cleaning and how was your day, but you're not really diving deep into who you really are and because we just kind of take for granted that that person is who we know them to be, but we are always changing. And just because we see each other day to day, We might miss some of those, those changes because we just keep people in a static position of this is who I know you to be.

Dr. Willow Brown:

Right, right. Yeah. Yeah. I think, um, you know, all the, the work she's done with boundaries and her little freebie gift that she's offering. I think there's never, you could never explore boundaries too much. You know, I really learned, um, uh, some good stuff about, about boundaries from, I think it was, um, Brian Reeves who I wanna have on the show as well. And, you know, he always talks about requests versus requirements and I use that a lot and I teach that a lot, um, when I'm helping people kind of understand like where they stand themselves with a boundary.

Leah Piper | More Love Works:

Mm hmm.

Dr. Willow Brown:

Is it just a request where you are ok if it doesn't happen or is it a requirement? And I think clarifications like that...So, I really want to take a look at her little free gift because I'm sure there's some nuggets in there that, you know, that I can glean from, that anyone can glean from. So, especially when you're exploring sexuality, there's this is one of the most charged, uh, sectors of our, you know, adult lives that we get to, um, traverse and explore. So having, having a good understanding of how to communicate boundaries, how to talk about your core values, you know, all these things that we teach a lot in our courses as well. It's so, so important.

Leah Piper | More Love Works:

I really loved in her, uh, List of things to talk about, like on a first date, um, the part around, um, sexual history in terms of STIs, that she also included pregnancy, like how do you feel about pregnancy and what would you want to happen if there was a

Dr. Willow Brown:

If there was an accidental pregancy

Leah Piper | More Love Works:

yeah, like, where do you stand on that and what would your reaction be? And you know, that's, that, that's not often disclosed and it's so important.

Dr. Willow Brown:

is very important,

Leah Piper | More Love Works:

Yeah, so, I really loved, that was one of my favorite parts of the episode.

Dr. Willow Brown:

Yeah, that was great. The, the, um, the BDSM, RBDSMTV, right? Is that it?

Leah Piper | More Love Works:

I don't think it's quite like that. I'm gonna have to review it.

Dr. Willow Brown:

It's

Leah Piper | More Love Works:

should have written it down.

Dr. Willow Brown:

our BDSMTV.

Leah Piper | More Love Works:

Okay. I don't like the, I don't like the

Dr. Willow Brown:

You don't like the TV?

Leah Piper | More Love Works:

I would take that off. No, the, the vaccination thing.

Dr. Willow Brown:

Oh, the, V. Yeah, well, and I also think the trauma response is maybe something that I might not need to ask about as somebody who knows how to handle trauma, but, you know, somebody else might. This could be a good question.

Leah Piper | More Love Works:

Right. A lot of people don't know what they would need and would have to tell the story to figure that out. You know, it could be a tricky one.

Dr. Willow Brown:

totally. Yeah, which is not going to turn into sexy time real easily, but yeah, good, good. Take it or leave it. Use it or don't use it. Moment to moment.

Leah Piper | More Love Works:

Willow is starting to do some interviews with some of our listeners. And if you want to be one of those people, we are looking to find out what do you want to hear? We want to curate this show to really have content that is at the foremost of your curiosity, your greatest interests, the things that you're looking to know more about. So how would you articulate? Some of those questions Willow, that people could maybe write into us.

Dr. Willow Brown:

Yeah, if you want to just write in, you're welcome to. Or if you want to have a quick little convo with me, that can be really fun as well. And that is a really good way also for me to give you a little bit of support in whatever is going on in your life. So those conversations have been a lot of fun. Um, but some of the questions I'm asking on those are, are, how did you discover the show? Um, what other podcasts do you listen to? Uh, would you make the show shorter or longer and tell me about a. friend or family member who would love this show. So there's other questions as well, but there's a few that you could write in if you so feel the desire to, it would really help us out. And, um, yeah, we're just really wanting to, to fine tune things for you specifically.

Leah Piper | More Love Works:

Yeah. All right, everybody have a beautiful day. Love, love, love.

Announcer:

Thanks for tuning in. This episode was hosted by Tantric Sex Master Coach and Positive Psychology Facilitator Leah Piper, as well as by Chinese and Functional Medicine Doctor and Taoist Sexology Teacher Dr. Willow Brown. Don't forget, your comments, likes, subscribes, and suggestions matter. Let's realize this new world together.

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Dr. Willow Brown

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Leah Piper

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Laurie Handlers

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