The Sex Reimagined Podcast

Irene Fehr: Why Being a Highly Sensitive Person (HSP) Could Be Your Hidden Superpower in Bed | #122

• Leah Piper, Dr. Willow Brown, Irene Fehr • Season 3 • Episode 122

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Ever been told you're "too sensitive" or find yourself overwhelmed by life's daily stimulations? You might be a Highly Sensitive Person (HSP) – and that's not a bad thing, especially when it comes to love and intimacy.

In this eye-opening episode of Sex Reimagined, we sit down with sex and intimacy expert Irene Fehr to explore how high sensitivity can actually enhance your relationships and deepen your connections. Whether you're an HSP or love someone who is, this conversation is packed with aha moments and practical wisdom.


EPISODE HIGHLIGHTS

  • The crucial difference between spontaneous and responsive desire
  • Why long-term couples often misunderstand each other's desire patterns
  • Practical strategies for navigating mismatched desire levels
  • How to handle triggering situations and emotional flooding
  • Creating heart-to-heart connections beyond daily practical interactions


EPISODE LINKS


KING & QUEEN OF HEARTS. Leah & Willow's King & Queen of Hearts Intimacy Toolkit is on sale. Buy Now. 10% off Coupon: KINGANDQUEEN10.

THE MALE GSPOT & PROSTATE MASTERCLASS. This is for you if… You’ve heard of epic anal orgasms, & you wonder if it’s possible for you too. Buy Now. Save 20% Coupon PODCAST20.

THE VAGINAL ORGASM MASTERCLASS. Discover how to activate the female Gspot, clitoris, & cervical orgasms. Buy Now. Save 20% Coupon: PODCAST 20

LAST 10x LONGER. If you suffer from premature ejaculation, you are not alone, master 5 techniques to cure this stressful & embarrassing issue once and for all. Buy Now. Save 20% Coupon: PODCAST20.

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Leah:

Welcome to the Sex Reimagined Podcast. This is Leah Piper, your Tantra expert here on the show, and I'm with Dr. Willow Brown, the Taoist expert here, and we've got a treat in store for you.

Willow:

Absolutely. Today, we had a lovely interview with Irene Farrer. She's a certified coach, sex and intimacy expert, and she really works deeply with couples who primarily the woman is no longer feeling her juju and hasn't been for a while and also happens to be a highly sensitive. So we really unpack what highly sensitive people are, HSPs as they are termed these days, and um, and how the relationships can thrive and not just survive but come into thriving. So you're going to love this episode. Tune in, turn on, and fall in love with Irene Fehr.

Announcer:

Welcome to the Sex Reimagined Podcast, where sex is shame free and pleasure forward. Let's get into the show.

Leah:

Welcome, Irene. We cannot wait to start talking about your work with couples and also highly sensitive people because there are many of us out there that get overstimulated very quickly and um, your, your research and your unique perspective on this I think is going to really open the hearts and minds of so many people who may be struggling with their partner who's highly sensitive or maybe for someone out there who's highly sensitive and has a lot of self judgment and shame about that.

Willow:

Yeah, maybe you could start by, um, giving us sort of a definition and some parameters about what an HSP, a highly sensitive person, is because that term is being passed around quite a lot these days. And, uh, you know, once people, I find once people kind of hear more, hear it more defined and more explained, they're like, Oh, I am that too. Oh, that explains so much. So let's start there.

Irene:

Thank you for having me here and for having this conversation. And to start with defining an HSP, so there are Um, two levels of sensitivity when we're talking, or two things that divide a highly sensitive person. One being that they are, uh, stimulated or overstimulated by a lot of things. It could be things in the environment such as noise, such as traffic. It could be emotional stimulation from taking on energy in the room from everyone else. Um, but that's not the only aspect of being highly sensitive that's important to acknowledge. The other piece is that all of this information that comes towards a highly sensitive person, they are likely to process it and process it and over process it more. So the brain is not only, taking in all this information, but again, it's spending an enormous amount of time and energy processing it making sense of it and so highly sensitive person is going to be over let overwhelmed by all these external forces and May also be overwhelmed by their own processing by their own need to make sense of all of that information and that can lead to over stimulation that could lead to a kind of Overwhelm that results in armoring, right? It's just so much and we end up protecting ourselves or the system, the nervous system shuts down to protect us from all of this.

Leah:

So, if I hear you say, if I'm hearing this correctly, you would define it as there's sort of a sensory over stimulation, right, in the environment with people. Sensory stimulation or just feeling the emotional impact, more of empathic sensation in the room by feeling other people's energy. And when you say processing, I think what you're saying is that there's a lot of thoughts that are arising that might be circulating. Would you call that rumination or is it something different than rumination?

Irene:

Well, I think rumination It can have a negative connotation, it could have kind of a traumatic connotation. We're trying to process what happened, we're trying to regain safety. Uh, I think for a highly sensitive person, it doesn't have to be that way. It is more of, uh, connecting the dots, making sense of what this information means, and also just making sense, making sense of all the experiences inside, the physical reactions to the stimulus, the, what the emotions are telling them. So it's, um, it's not necessarily rumination, although certainly that is, you know, part of many people's experience, um, but it's really just also, um, What's the saying? Um, when you filter out the important things, it's like separating the wheat from the, the chef from the wheat. Exactly. You're making, you're trying to find what's important. Because again, there's just so much, and a lot of it is just noise. Exactly.

Willow:

um, like tests and quizzes out there and things that can kind of help you define if you are an HSP, correct? Elaine Aaron first

Irene:

came up with the label highly sensitive person. She has amazing quizzes on her website where you can find out whether you are that. And then there's also, you know, we have to understand that this is on a spectrum too, that there are very highly sensitive people who are immobilized by their sensitivity. And then there's highly functioning people who have that. Um, but they are not immobilized by it and then of course there's a lot of variations in between so it's not like it's you're afflicted by being highly sensitive but it it really depends on on the where you are in the spectrum.

Willow:

What happened for you when you were, when you sort of realized like, Oh, I am one of these, like, how did that shift the way that you interacted with the world around you, environments, and relationships?

Irene:

That's a great question. You know, uh, well, growing up highly sensitive, I was told that I was, I'm too sensitive, you're too, too, uh, you're too dramatic, right? My reactions were dramatic because I was overstimulated. So there was a lot of these negative comments, right? You're too dramatic. You're, um, you're, you're thinking too much into it. Things like that. And certainly in sex, uh, and intimacy, I thought that my high sensitivity was a liability. That I wasn't able to get into things just because, uh, or thinking that I was broken sexually. Not realizing that I needed to really honor my sensitivity to be able to come alive. And so, when I learned about that, it gave me so much permission to take time. To ask for what I needed, even though It wasn't necessarily something accepted in the mainstream, right? Like, taking it slow or, um, allowing space for connection. Um, so it's certainly growing up that wasn't taught. You're supposed to go straight into sex and, and again, I thought it was broken because I, it didn't, I didn't find that appealing and it didn't work for me. It shut me down. So again, that permission to really honor The high sensitivity that I have and to, uh, welcome it, to remove some of the labels and to really, um, see those as gifts, as something that I, that I can access, um, aspects of experience that other people who are not highly sensitive can't.

Willow:

Yeah, I

Irene:

flipping that around.

Willow:

we can reframe it and kind of see it as a superpower. I mean, especially in sexuality, if you're very sensitive, like that could really work for you. You know, you could have a lot of fun with that. You just need someone who can, um, cater to that.

Irene:

Yeah. And, and, uh

Leah:

little bit about what is the, what are the talents of the highly sensitive person both in the bedroom and outside the bedroom.

Irene:

Yeah, well, one of them is intensity. So highly sensitive also means highly responsive and someone who can feel a lot. So highly sensitive people by nature, feel intensely. And so in sex and intimacy, they can access, we can access higher states of pleasure, of emotional connection. of, uh, surrender if the circumstances are met and I call those pre sex needs. Um, but when those are met, so much can happen again, reaching high levels of intensity, of passion and of, um, creativity and imagination. So that's one. The second one is connection. So one of the sensitivity level, sensitivity aspects that I mentioned is, um, Being sensitive to energy, being sensitive to connection. And so again, the gift is that, uh, highly sensitive people can really, uh, open up to, and they connect, connect deeply. So the connection is not just let's have fun, but the connection is can we open up, can we be vulnerable with each other? Can we reveal something of ourselves to each other? And that ties to also be, uh, bringing in spirituality into that connection. So, it may be connection, uh, between ourselves and, uh, higher power, God, universe, but then also us together as a couple connected to some kind of spiritual, uh, uh, some kind of spirit or, or, or God. So that adds a lot of richness to sex beyond the physical aspect of it.

Willow:

I'm curious for, for both of you, because Leah, I think you definitely are an HSP on, we're on, we're both on the spectrum, we're both in there, um, I'm just curious for both of you, like how, um, how you see your gifts as an HSP transfer with your work with clients.

Leah:

Um, well, I wonder if you would agree with this, Irene. I think there's, um, a natural skill towards attunement. When you have an ability to attune to the people that you're working with, you can feel, you can sense, and you can often name what it is they're having a hard time naming, and in terms of what they're, what's behind the sensation that they're having, or what's behind the words that they're saying that have to dot, that relates to this sensation, so you can preemptively Hold someone differently and follow their energy and follow their opening and track when they're closing and being able to, you know, from a therapeutic standpoint, ask the questions that helps them reveal more of themselves to themselves, but as a one who's in lovership with somebody. You're able to anticipate and follow their system so that you're taking them on a ride. You're able to go up here and come down there and go up here and go down there. So it's not just a one dimensional, here we're going to ride a peak and come down it, we're actually going on a journey together. Matched.

Irene:

I love.

Willow:

beautiful. So well said. And yeah, it's, it's, I think that, you know, with that attunement with clients, um, you know, one of the things that, that I find is there, they're so deeply grateful because they haven't had that experience with anyone in their, their, their life, you know, before. And so when they're finally like seen and met in that way, it's, um, it's a, opens up a whole new part of themselves that they didn't have access to before. One thing that I'm sort of always On the edge of and grappling with is like, it's not me. It's not about me. Cause they'll start to project. Oh, it's you. It's about you. And yes, I am like the mirror that you're looking into in this moment, but it's really to open up what's inside of you so that you can have more of that in your own life. So that's, that's sort of the second part to my question for both of you. And I mean, we still want to hear your, your response, but like, you know, then, then when your clients are starting to be like, You know, fall in love with you, basically. Like, what, how do you, um, uh, redirect it back to it being about them?

Irene:

well, I want to echo everything that you said about attunement and how beautiful it is to see clients learn something about themselves, reveal something about themselves that they didn't know, or put words to that experience. Uh, you know, if I say something like, I, I sense there's a longing there, and they're like, I, I had no idea, I had no idea I had a longing around this, I had no idea that I felt lonely, or that I, um, was feeling all these things, and, um, it is a beautiful thing, and like you said, it is, maybe one of the first times that they ever experienced that in their lives. And, uh, what happens in a couple is that I then redirect it to the partner. And so that I'm not the one responsible for creating this, but that they, uh, they can have that with a partner. The partner sees what I've done and I empower them then to be able to do that together. Because ultimately, it's not so that they keep come, keep coming to me for that experience, is that they learn to do this with themselves and then they grow deeper with each other by, by continuously revealing.

Leah:

skill you can learn.

Willow:

Yeah.

Leah:

You know, some people are more naturally inclined to it, um, but it's certainly something that you can become sensitive to. You can learn how to be more sensitive, you can learn how to be more energetically aware, you can practice presence, and all those things give those things people those, those gifts, which come in really handy if you want to be a good lover. You want to be paying attention to what's happening with your partner.

Willow:

is really important. We say it all the time. We'll say it again.

Leah:

not just fulfilling your own needs. In fact, your own needs, in my opinion, will become more fulfilled when you have circuitry between you and your partner that's operating really well, right? It's like you're sensing how they're opening or how they're closing and you're responding appropriately to that. So, how do you help a partner? navigate their partner sensitivity. What are some of the skills or the practices or the things that you sort of enlighten them to become aware of?

Irene:

Well the first thing to understand is where they're coming from in relationship to the partner and their sensitivity. Because for some people it could be triggering. It could be either a mirror, uh, to something that they've disowned about themselves, and that could be triggering. It could be, uh, merely a no

Leah:

of that?

Irene:

Well, I think, I think there are way more highly sensitive people in the world that people are willing to admit. Um, certainly that's true when it comes to men. Uh, because of course, men, the word sensitive for men is, uh, derogatory, exactly. So, and also the way, of course, boys have been brought up for hundreds of years has been to, uh, remove that sensitivity to make them tough. You know, boys don't cry. Boys don't hurt, they move through all these sorts of things. So, again, boys and men in particular, uh, disown this part of themselves. And so, their partner's sensitivity is going to be a trigger. I hate this in myself and I'm going to judge and criticize my partner for being so sensitive. You take so much time, you know, this kind of attitude. And so, it's Really important to to look at what's happening in me. Where am I being triggered? And again, what parts of myself am I disowning?

Leah:

Brilliant.

Willow:

Yeah, so it sounds like a lot of the work you're doing with couples is not just inside of sexuality. Like, it's a lot around communication, learning to listen, learning to attune, um,

Irene:

even before that, removing the barriers to all of that, because we have so many barriers to being able to listen and truly attune, because we have our own triggers. We have barriers around, well certainly education about sexuality, about women's sexual desire, which is my area of expertise. And so, um, We have to kind of clean the field first before we build something on top.

Willow:

yeah.

Irene:

And, uh, again, I, the removing of the barriers is really important because I believe that we all naturally are, more or less sensitive. We all are built for connection. We can, uh, when we were born, when we were babies, we are able to read our bodies, we listen to our bodies, we cannot not do that. Um, but then we unlearn that. We become civilized in quotes, right? We become trained to live in society and a lot of that goes against what we really need to be present, to be attuned, to be fully alive in sexuality, in our sexual relationships. So it's kind of this, this, uh, parallel process of cleaning some of that up and then building new communication pathways or new skills, uh, connection pathways, um, and allowing couples to, to come closer together.

Willow:

So beautiful. I bet they're so appreciative. What, what's um, like, where, where do you start with like the Let's say a couple is coming in and they haven't been having sex for maybe years, you know, and, um, and she's like, well, it just hurts, you know, I don't, I just, it just, it's painful. And he's just like, what's the problem? Why can't we just have normal sex? You know? And she's like, I want to breathe and I gaze and like have more tantric experience. Right. So like, where do you start them off? Do you start them off with like, Um, you know, clearing these, these blocks and then learning to communicate and then get into sexuality, or do you just kind of dive in with all of it together at once?

Irene:

Well, first I want to clarify that usually the area that I focus on is long term couples where they experience that dynamic, not over the last month or a year, but typically several years to sometimes decades. And so it's really important that we take it slow and that I work with clients for a minimum of a year. And I set the expectation up front that, hey, you know, you've been together for 20 years. You've developed a whole lot of patterns, a whole lot of hurts, disappointments. This cannot be solved in a session or two.

Willow:

Right.

Irene:

And we start slow and yes, we start to unpack things. Um, but we also, both things happen, like I said, the unpacking, but also the building. It's just that it's happening very slowly. And I come from a somatic experiencing background. I'm a somatic experiencing practitioner. So I'm also working with their nervous system and tracking what they can handle. And distressed couples, like I described. They can't handle a lot. Their window of tolerance is very, very small. They get easily triggered. They don't know how to get out of those. And again, taking it slow, but building, uh, brick by brick is really important. And it's a very organic journey because each couple brings in different challenges. Um, for some couples, especially couples with younger children. We work on a lot of the practical stuff of like making time to be with each other making time for intimacy section sessions be it emotional intimacy or physical intimacy without rushing or without falling asleep because they're the end of the day. So I do a lot of this kind of coaching where it's like, okay, what needs to happen for you to have this time? Babysitters, family, uh, schedules, what needs to happen. Um, and then again, the emotional work and the sexual work introducing to them different ways of seeing things. And, um, clearing up a lot of misconceptions around women's sexual desire. Because most people are not familiar with, um, The spontaneous versus responsive model, and there's a tremendous amount of judgment on both women's and men's part that she's broken, right? Um, so much teaching

Leah:

I really want to dig into this part around the spontaneous versus the responsive desire. Uh, but before we do that, I'm curious, what advice do you have for someone listening who really relates to, I'm so easily triggered, or my partner is so easily triggered, and then I get triggered. What is something people, couples can do to start to like slow down their system as they start to feel that dump, right? Where they're just, they're starting to flood. In fact,

Irene:

what they need to do has to happen way before this, and that is that when you start to realize we have a pattern, it's a predictable pattern, like he says this, she says this, he responds in a predictable way, she responds in a predictable way, that it's important to talk about this pattern outside of when you're triggered in it. Because once you're in it, your prefrontal cortex goes offline, you act like a lizard, and you have the brain capacity of a lizard. And so nothing can happen once you're already triggered. But when you are back in green, where your prefrontal cortex is back, when you feel at ease and connected with your partner, that's the time to bring up this pattern and to try to understand and see how. How this dance plays out so that you can preempt it next time it happens. So it could be agreeing that, Hey, when you see me raising my voice and articulating, that's the moment to please back up, like, don't keep arguing with me or hold my hand or, um, do something, right. You can agree on how to work with each other's triggers. But again, that has to happen ahead of time. Once you're in it, you're gone. And we all are. This is,

Willow:

Yeah. It's

Irene:

of, of a human nervous

Willow:

works. Yeah.

Irene:

and the nervous system in particular. Exactly.

Willow:

for sure.

Leah:

Okay, great. So, yeah, please describe to us the difference between spontaneous and responsive desires and how confusing that can often be.

Irene:

Yeah. So, spontaneous sexual desire is what most men have and what our culture and society deems as, The de facto sexual desire. It's how sexual desire is presented in the movies, in the media, and in a lot of the old models. Um, certainly that's how Freud saw it. And the spontaneous sexual desire model is that there is some kind of trigger. It could be seeing your partner walk by naked. It could be, I don't know, seeing a billboard model who's hot. Uh, having some kind of, uh, Nice interaction with, with, uh, your partner or anyone. And out of that wanting sex, it's almost like, like a instant spontaneous thing where there's a trigger and there's a desire for sex. And then the arousal follows that. And That this is how most men function when they have that desire for their partner to have sex with their partner, they can get hard and be ready for penetration sex anywhere from 20 seconds to a couple of minutes. And so all of this really takes a very, very short amount of time, which really looks spontaneous. It can arise at any point out of any situation.

Willow:

I have a funny story about that. The other day I was in the sauna after swimming at the gym and oh my god there was this beautiful man like a stallion of a man, right? I was like damn, I was looking looking out of the corner of my eye, right? Oh my gosh, and then the sauna cleared out everyone left and he fucking got hard and started like Seconds and I was huge and I was like Trying not to look, but trying to look. It's one of those, just like, definitely a spontaneous moment, you know, just like it is amazing, actually. It's, when you think about like the amazingness of, of what men are able to do, you know, it's

Irene:

Yeah,

Leah:

appreciate that instead of judge it, that's, that's a whole nother

Willow:

I've always thought it would be fun to like spend a day in a man's body and just like play with that energy because it's so yang. It's so ready to go. It's so ripe and right there at the surface all the time. I was actually doing, um, a training recently with, uh, on around BDSM and subdom stuff. And, uh, and the guy was, he put his cock into a, um, uh, uh, chastity. And, uh, and I was like, why, why do that? He's like, well, the truth is men have constant awareness of their penis all day long. And then when you put this chastity on it, it's even more, more there. So it's more prevalent. And I just thought that was so fascinating to like highlight the thing that is already such a thing for them in order to just, you know, experience themselves

Leah:

Well, two things arise for me when I hear you say that. One is an immediate threat. Um, my system goes, oh, threat, expectation, oh my God, something's going to happen and I'm not ready for it. And I have to somehow, there's an, there's an obligatory threatening. Oh god, this is a setup.

Willow:

Yeah, what do I do

Leah:

Yeah, yeah. So I really love the, the, the opportunity to totally celebrate. Wow, how fun, how interesting, how easy, like, and also how difficult. I can appreciate that that's not always comfortable, you know, having the spontaneous things just happen out of your control. So like a lot of, there's a lot of cool material there. Um, and then the other thing is, Oh, there was something else, but, oh well, it'll, it'll flip back in. Um, yeah.

Irene:

I want to add to what you were saying about how they're always conscious, they're always present of it, and that is because men's sexuality is really at the surface. So is their genitalia. It's out there, right? It's visible. And so they are, they have access to it. Very relatively easy access to it, whereas it's very different with responsive sexual desire where there needs to be other things that lead you to open up, which is again reflective of women's genitalia, and open up and enter a space where you can access sexuality. And both are equally, uh, beautiful, equally right. There's nothing wrong with them, but they're extremely different.

Leah:

And I think it's also fair to mention that all men are wired that way. Not all penis owners have. spontaneous um, response. My partner doesn't and because I don't, we, we both are like, okay, well, who initiates? Who starts? Who feels it when no one feels it? You know, like you need all these outside forces to bring the energy up to the surface. And so that's a unique, that's another unique thing to navigate when both people desire to have more sexual intimacy, but it's hard to go, well, I like it, but how I don't feel it. So, you know, starting, making sure you're creating that, co creating that with purpose and intention even when you don't feel like it is another thing to contend with.

Irene:

And that's exactly how I approach this, is, um, I have couples where mostly, spontaneously, men with spontaneous sexual desire and women with responsive. And what I teach them is exactly that. How do you intentionally create a context where sexual, where you can access that because it's not on the surface and no one is initiating it first, at least what you described, like when there's two responsive, uh, partners, uh, but that where it can get, where it can arise. And you have to be intentional, you have to, like I said, make that, create that spaciousness, make that time, and, uh, know how to access these different corners of you where there is, uh, where sexual desire lives. For some people, it may be through, uh, emotional and energetic connection, the eye gazing, the, uh, talking vulnerably. For others, it could be through sensual touch, through opening up by really surrendering your body to each other. For others, it's some combination of, of those two. Uh, for others, it may be play. Exactly. Exactly. And, um, when you have two partners, you still have to do the, uh, exactly. Let me start over. When you have two responsive partners, you have to do that even more intentionally because there's no one partner who is going to initiate. But that's exactly what I do with couples as well, even when there is, um, um, Spontaneous, uh, partner because, um, they also have to learn this way because the very direct, very suggestive way of just going straight into sex doesn't work for them, especially if their female partner is highly sensitive.

Willow:

Mm.

Leah:

and then they, and then they have the wound of like feeling rejected all the time and feeling undesired and also being kind of bitter and angry at always being the initiator and what that makes them feel is being this undesired Um, burden, you know, and how shut down their sex becomes because it feels like it's unwanted or unappreciated.

Willow:

Mhm.

Irene:

Or they get, they get pity sex or sex out of obligation from their partner, which also feels terrible.

Willow:

Become such a vicious cycle,

Irene:

Yeah, exactly.

Leah:

really

Willow:

Especially as the years go on. And then you just, you're like, let's just put it to rest. Let's just not do it at all. Yeah.

Irene:

Yeah, it's exhausting for both partners and they typically get into an attachment dance where one is the pursuer and the other one is avoidant. And that is triggering on a whole other level of bringing up attachment wounds and it can get very tangled up and very emotionally painful.

Leah:

I'd love for you to share with us a success story of a long term relation. Are we taking the same thing?

Willow:

my, yeah, my question was like, how, how many months like on this year long spectrum that you're having people commit to, like about, about where did they start to see a shift?

Irene:

Well, um, I have many success stories, which all of them are on my website. Um, but, you know, to answer your question of when they see shifts is that I've designed my process in such a way that they start to see shifts from the first conversation. From feeling validated in their experience to, you know, So, having a different language to, different vocabulary to use with each other, a more, a more emotionally, um, attuned vocabulary rather than one about, uh, complaints or the practicalities. And so they really, again, experience a whole different way of approaching the program, the problem. And, uh, Gosh, which success story should I mention? Well, one of them is that I started working with a couple right when COVID started. So it was literally like March of 2020 and they were, they had just had a child two years prior and their sex life came to a halt. And for the first year and a half, we had sessions with one of them, uh, holding the kid on their lap, um, while we worked through things. And their challenge was, like I said, sex came to a halt when there was a child. The man was the higher desire partner. He was resentful. He was, um, also touch starved, um, both because there was a new baby, but also because there was no more connection or intimacy or closeness between'em. And they had of course, contemplated div contemplated divorce. Uh, in the year prior they had consulted with two therapists who basically told them, you have no chance of making it. You should just get divorced. Yeah, and now four years later, they are thriving. He left his job, his kind of professional job, to do something that he's passionate about. They're connected, they're having sex, they're talking about sex and what they want to do with each other. And, um, there's just a beautiful example of this kind of transformation of, um, when you can really, um, touch the deep emotional hurts and wounds behind the the loss of sex in a relationship from both perspectives from the men's perspective and the woman's because they're different but equally of course valid and and clear some of that pain or a lot of the pain you can build such beautiful results on top of that

Leah:

So share with us a little bit about the mismatch and desire levels. And How you approach that, is it quality over quantity? When you have a partner who just, it just feels like you can't keep up with their level of desire. It's just, it feels like an impossible task.

Irene:

gosh this could take a whole day because there's so much

Leah:

It's so deep,

Willow:

a week long retreat, workshop.

Irene:

Exactly. Well, a lot of the mismatched sexual desires come from a misunderstanding about the, like I said, the, the spontaneous and the responsive sexual desire, because it, well, in the beginning of a relationship, it looks like the, the, the two desires are the same. And that is because in the beginning we are being driven by sex hormones, right? We are driven to

Leah:

cocktail on the planet. Is it a good one?

Irene:

And why? Because we need to procreate. We need to hook up and make a baby. And this is true whether you're 20 or 82. That is still there, right? That, that natural, um, sexual hormonal cocktail. But what happens Especially for women where those were the response of sexual desire in the long term has nothing to do with any of those sex hormones So over time it starts to look like they have different sexual desires that there's a big disparity There's a higher desire partner and there's a lower desire partner But again, that's what it looks like on the surface because If we look back to the beginning, we also were doing a lot of other things that were very conducive to women's sexual desire coming alive. There was a tremendous amount of connection. We were spending time on the phone talking to each other during the night, and we couldn't wait to see each other. And there was texting during the day, and there was just, just, like, not enough, like, not having enough of

Leah:

up, having anticipation, your hearts are

Willow:

getting your nails done.

Leah:

all this zhuzhing and it's bringing out the best of you and the best in them. And just so, so much easier with all that openness happening.

Irene:

Exactly. And so, but we forget that. And we think that, oh, now we are different. We have different desires. And no. The men's sexual desire, the spontaneous one, it was, Easy to trigger before and it's still very easy, right? All he has to do is wake up in the morning and he's hard, right? It does not take much, but all those elements that were there in the beginning go by the wayside, like again, taking time for yourself, taking time to be with each other, uh, doting on each other, all of that gets replaced by responsibilities, by kids, by, by pets, by all the to do lists. And so that affects women's response of sexual desire. She's no less sexual. She's just not getting the essential nutrients for that sexual desire to come alive.

Willow:

I like the way you just said that. Yeah, the essential nutrients. It's like a plant, you know, and it stopped getting watered. It stopped getting fed. And so, why is it dying? Because it's

Leah:

and I'm sure this can be very individual, right, per woman. I mean, different things turn different people on. But there's gotta be a lot of commonalities, too. I mean, I think sometimes just too much proximity to your partner has a way of just It's like It's hard to feel turned on by the person you see all the time who handles all your complaints, whose complaints you handle all the time and who you wake up next to and no one gets dressed up anymore and it's just like life is just efforting and so what is some of the advice that's pretty across the board helpful in terms of creating more spark or more interest so that juice can be recalibrated?

Irene:

Well, building on what you said about proximity and being bogged down with all the practical things, the complaints or what's going on, um, I think the key is not necessarily changing the proximity, but changing the relationship with your partner. And that is from going from focusing on practicalities to having heart to heart connection. Right? Because that's also, that's what gets lost when life takes over. We focus on all the practicalities, but we forget that we are there. There's a human underneath the, the complaints or the to do list. And so, You know, um, the advice to have sex night, or sorry, to have a date night, which is often coupled with a sex

Leah:

Yeah.

Irene:

Exactly. But this advice means that we're going to have connection once a week. For the rest of the time, we're just going to face each other in this practical way. And that's not enough. It's about having heart to heart connection. And it doesn't mean you have to get, you know, lovey dovey and all that. It's asking questions about your daily experience. Like if you are having trouble with your boss, Hey, uh, what's that like? What do you wish would change? Or, or how does it impact you? Or, um, what does it bring up for you? What matters? Exactly. Uh,

Leah:

be different? It's those open ended questions.

Irene:

Exactly. Exactly.

Willow:

have some good ones that we were just workshopping that I want to share with everyone. The, I always, inside of one of our programs, Leah and I's programs, we have the, the deepest hearts desires. And I think that's a really good practice for couples to do at least once a month with each other, where they just sit down and for three minutes, one person speaks and the other listens. And it's like, what is your deepest hearts desire? And you just sit there. I'm going to speak about that for three minutes. And then you say what that felt like to you. What's the reflection of the listener? And then you swap. And so that's a really great question. And then I just had three more come through my sphere, which is what wants to be known, what wants to be held, and what wants to be helped? You know, and so I think it really helps. Mindfulness helps people get in touch with, um, those deeper parts of themselves. That's so easy to gloss over. Oh, I'll just distract with social media, or something else. I'll watch TV. Instead of like, going deeper and finding out what's true for themselves. I mean, that's the beauty of being in a relationship, is you have somebody to be there, to listen, and to, hopefully, to listen and to be a reflection,

Leah:

Well, and I think it's important that the conversation isn't a conversation that ends. There's no ending. It's, it's a continuating thing. One of the things I love about the Gottman's work is You know, remembering to continue to dream together just because you've been together for a decade or more doesn't mean that you don't still co create dreams, you know, I love one of his examples is if we had all the money, how would you redecorate the bedroom, you know, if we could remodel the house, what are the things that you would love to do to it, you know, or if we could Go on any vacation in January. Where would you want to go? And how would that be different from the vacation we'd go on in July, you know? And it's just like being able to reignite getting to know each other and not taking for granted that just because I know so much about you, that, and that I think I know everything about you, that there's still corners that haven't been investigated. And let's help each other investigate that.

Irene:

yeah. And we're constantly changing, so those corners, new ones might reveal themselves, we might learn something about ourselves, or, or transform, and it is a, um, uh, a matter of constantly learning, continuously being curious,

Leah:

and you're not just getting closer to your partner when you engage in this type of conversation, but you're also getting closer to who you are. And you get a moment to reflect and be witnessed so that you understand yourself on a deeper level, which has so much value. And then you're letting your partner see that, and bask in that, and, um, and I think that's just something that really, um, That really serves connection and longevity, so you're not getting bored, and so you're not taking each other for granted. But you're going on some of those rides, and that creates that kind of quality time, that even if that's not your primary love language, it's going to enrich you. And it kind of reminds me, just kind of piggybacking on this topic is, you know, one of the things, um, Oh, Esther Perel mentions, it's like observing your partner when they're in their genius zone. Like how sexy that is, like what a turn on that is. When your partner is just being their magical selves in the realm of their domain, it's like you just go, ah, you just are watching them shine and that shine shimmers on you too. You know, sometimes I know for a lot of people who have kids, watching their partner be with their kids. And watching like what an amazing parent they are. It turns them on so much. I think that that's so precious, I don't have kids. But if I did, I know my husband would be one of those. You just have to look at and play with the kids and you're like, as soon as you're done, meet me in the bedroom.

Irene:

Exactly. Which speaks to that, again, we're responsive to a lot of different things. And it's about understanding our own, those essential nutrients. And creating a way to, a context where they can be met.

Leah:

Now I imagine there are some people that are so disconnected From what turns them on. It's like they've been so out of touch with, okay, I'm just learning now that I'm responsive. Oh shit. What does that even mean? I don't even know where to start. I haven't responded to anything in so long that I don't even know what opens me. I don't, I don't feel juicy. I don't know how to be turned on. This all feels so overwhelming. Like I'm still trying to fix this thing that's broken inside of me. Where do they start? What do you suggest?

Irene:

Well, actually piggybacking to this whole topic we were talking about, about those questions, those open ended questions. So the three questions I teach my clients pretty much in the beginning is asking each other, what will have you feel loved today? What will have you feel supported? And what will have you feel desired? And.

Willow:

question.

Irene:

That third question is so hard for people. Uh, I just finished working with this, this couple in their mid thirties and the woman, when I, uh, proposed these questions to them, she started crying because it was not a question that she ever asked herself or anyone asked her. What would have you feel desired or what would have, what do you, what do you want? Right? She only knew how to show up for sex, how to do it for others, but for her, how do you want to be desired was, was again, uh, a really foreign question.

Leah:

Yeah,

Willow:

And, you know, there's all different kinds of people and genders and orientations who can't answer that question. And also can't

Irene:

Yeah.

Willow:

is their deepest heart's desire? Not just in the sexual realm, but what is their deepest heart's desire? I think it's, um, we're so busy surviving that we don't know how to thrive. We don't know how to get in touch with, um, just you know, what that deeper desire is, or it feels like it doesn't matter if I find out what my deepest desire is sexually or in my heart because it's never going to be met. You know, there's that belief, that belief that like, well, it's never been met before. So what makes me think that anything is going to change for me in this world? And so there's a, like you were saying, a lot of blocks to break down and break through. Um, that's a, such an important part of the process. Okay.

Irene:

And I think one of the most important things we can do to prevent, especially girls and women, of not being able to answer this question is to ask this question to girls. To ask them to look inside themselves and start to develop a vocabulary about what they want, because when girls hit puberty, they start to shapeshift to be wanted by others. And it's about what, how do you, like, what do you want? What's important to you? What would you want? How do you want to feel exactly? And this question needs to be posed to girls very early. This is the best sex education that you can give to children, which has nothing to do with sex, but it prepares them to be able to answer this question later on because they're used to it. They're used to looking inside. They're used to having that permission to think about what they want.

Leah:

So is that just a general question? Just a simple what do you want? Is that the question you're proposing? Because I think we have, uh, we've made this habit in our culture of normalizing boy sexuality, right? We're teaching them about their wet dreams, we're teaching them about their spontaneous erections, you know, there's a lot more information. We, we really avoid talking about and normalizing, um, um, Girls sexual impulses and the sexualization of, of who we get to be as women, that we get to be sexual beings as well. And that, and that we are sexual beings right out the gate. As if somehow we turn 13 and everything wakes up is such a falsehood. We are feeling and sensing and are these alive, sensual creatures. We are wired this way. We have the skin. We have these smells. We have everything that we can see. And it's like, At what age do you recommend parents start helping us normalize, and then how do we normalize female sexuality? Um, such an interesting topic. And

Irene:

It is, again.

Leah:

haven't spent a lot of time engaging that, but it's one that I'm really curious about. Sure.

Irene:

appropriate segments of this. So a big piece is, of course, consent. So starting with very young age, you know, asking, like, for example, a parent goes to brush a girl's hair, asking, Do you like this? What do you like about this? Is it okay if I touch it, you know, brush your hair this way? Or is it, would you like to do it differently? So again, giving the girls opportunities to listen to their own body and what's happening. Because it may be obviously a normal thing, a parent brushing their child's hair, but they might be holding on, they might be allowing this because they need to do it. But They're not saying, Hey, you know, actually I would prefer that you do it differently. So

Leah:

way for

Irene:

my favorite way,

Leah:

yeah, and yeah, what's the part you don't like the most about it, you know? I mean, because you gotta brush your hair, we're gonna have to brush your hair, so do you have a preferred way? Which, which side feels the best? And allowing them to kind of explore their, the sensation. Of what they feel like, like from the top, from the bangs going back, versus the sides, versus being pulled up and doing whatever they're doing with the hair. That's so interesting.

Willow:

Yeah.

Irene:

and then they can use that vocabulary and that also, uh, ease about it. The earlier you do it, the more at ease they're going to be with, uh, different, their body being a different way and being,

Willow:

agency. Really? Yeah. It's

Irene:

And then as, as a child gets older, then you can start talking about maybe some, uh, uncomfortable feelings and versus comfortable feelings and helping them be with that. So, you know, uh, I remember when my breasts were developing, that was an incredibly uncomfortable feeling. I all of a sudden started to feel the clothes on me and the sensation and the overstimulation and of course no one talked about it. And so I would have benefited tremendously even before it happened that that I was, um, supported in understanding that my body might feel uncomfortable or it might feel really pleasant, uh, and that it's okay, um, and to, um, to give again that permission to have all of these different experiences and to not think any of them are bad, that none of them make us broken, but that some of them may be uncomfortable and hard to, to be with,

Willow:

Yeah.

Leah:

even just having a safe place to, God, they ache. Why they ache so much, you know? Just like, they won't ache forever. You know, this is just that period. Just having someone be sensitive to like, yeah, they hurt. They're overly sensitive. And, you know, maybe even navigating, let's go feel different textures. Uh, and see if we can't find you a bra that feels more comfortable. Maybe we can get some different fabric for you.

Irene:

Yeah.

Willow:

I was really lucky I got that as a teen because I had a, I had a nurse mom, you know? So she was, I started developing boobs in second grade, end of second grade. So early, early. And um, yeah, I was, I came home from school. I was like, we were doing jumping jacks and it hurt here, you know? And like, and she was like, Oh, and she, you know, introduced me to the bras and the styles and the fabrics and all. It was really sweet. Yeah, I got lucky.

Leah:

You know, then there's the other dynamic of growing up in households where there's just so much shame in the conversation of sexuality. That that's like a whole nother hurdle. I know that in some instances if my mom had tried to have a lot of conversations, even just about, you know, nipples hurting and growing and stuff. I would have felt sick inside. There

Willow:

It would have been

Leah:

a shame attack would have been occurring as a part of my sensitivity and not being able to read, is this her shame? Is this my shame? Is this the church's shame? like And I would just, I could get flooded so easily and then I'd feel sick and then I would like want to really retreat. It would be the overexposure of even talking about bodies made me feel really ill. And it might also have to do with sexual trauma happening at the same time. So it was very complex for some of us. Um, navigating that as a cultural issue that's probably not as, um, it's probably more common than we might realize.

Irene:

And coming back to being highly sensitive, for me, there was a lot of shame about sex and sexuality because my mom tried to talk to me about it, but it was not in an attuned way. It was not coming from connection or from easing into it or building up from what I mentioned earlier, giving me permission and teaching me how to connect to myself. It was just out of absolutely nowhere.

Willow:

Right.

Irene:

And I was completely overwhelmed and shut down, not because I was in any way influenced by cultural or religious shame, but because I could not. contain my reaction. It was, it was like I got hit by a truck and I'm supposed to somehow react positively to that.

Willow:

Mm.

Irene:

So that too is that, that attunement piece, especially to highly sensitive people is very important. You know, especially if you have that cultural religious shame on top of it, because you, then it's just this. You know, you get caught in an avalanche and you can't stop your own reaction. You dissociate, you get knocked out.

Leah:

So,

Irene:

to manage.

Leah:

if someone's listening right now and they've got a friend, a kid, a partner, whoever, and they're watching the avalanche happen, And what's, what's the first thing they should do when they're in the presence of, okay, again, this is, they're flooding. Is it just to kind of, should they physically move their body? Give them a little bit of space around the other person's system? What advice do you have if they're just navigating this for the first time and they're watching it roll out?

Irene:

Well, so when that flooding is happening, the nervous system is going into fight or flight or bypassing fight or flight and going into freeze. And what that means is that the person is threatened. The nervous system is threatened. And if you're having a conversation with someone who's being flooded, you are the threat. And so the key piece is to Acknowledge that for yourself. Whoa, I see I'm contributing to that. And one of the, uh, best ways to not necessarily start, stop the avalanche, but to at least, uh, prevent it from taking out a village is to acknowledge that, Hey, I think I went a little too far with you. I'm so sorry. I, I'm going to back off. Or I see I, I triggered something painful and I, I can see that what I said did that, I'm so sorry. I'm gonna back off and let the other person start to get a sense that the threat is backing off. That they don't have to do anything, that they don't have to any, uh, react to that.

Leah:

Wow,

Irene:

Um, and then again, the, the second piece is what I shared earlier. Talk about this outside of that. Hey, I, again, I realized what I said was really too much. Uh, how can we do this differently next time?

Leah:

Right. Yeah, that's beautiful. That's great

Willow:

And I think too, for the person who's flooded, if they can name that in the moment, if they can be aware that their it, that their nervous system has gone into overwhelm, you know, if they have their finger on the pulse of that, that can be really helpful for the person who's, you know, causing the trigger, the flooding, um, to, to take responsibility for their side of it too. And, and the, the beautiful thing about it is nobody's wrong, you know, nobody is

Leah:

Misbehaving.

Willow:

misbehaving. Yeah. It's really just, it's an opportunity to learn how to be with each other in a way that works for both of you.

Leah:

Yeah. Thank you so much, Irene. This has been a really delightful conversation. I think it's going to really, um, land with so many people listening. And I think this is an important conversation for us to grow in, in skill and, and in delight. I think we've got such a, we feel so, uh, it's so conflicting all the emotions because we judge ourselves so harshly. so much. And oftentimes when we're judging ourselves harshly, we'll judge our, we project that onto someone else with a judgment for them. And we just find ourselves in so much turmoil when really we can see this a little bit differently, if we can breathe some space between. ourselves and see that this is actually an adventure we get to go on and that when we're learning about our partner and we're learning about ourselves it's really quite thrilling and if we just have to kind of get curious and find ways to get out of the judgment so that we can have those breakthroughs and then we can really have some really impactful, exciting, transcendent love occur in our bodies and

Willow:

It's so worth it, everybody. It's so worth it. So Irene, where can our listeners find you?

Irene:

So you can find me on my website, which is www.IreneFehr.Com. There's a wealth of information on all the topics that I talked about. I have a very active blog and an email list. And I also, if I may mention, um, there's something I'm doing that's new that I'm super excited about, which is Offering men a support group to be able to get validated in their experience when they are in a sexless marriage where the partner doesn't want to work on it or is unable to work on it for whatever reason. Um, whereas my area, um, has always been around women's sexual desire, um, but again, a lot of the times the women are not able to do it. And so I'm offering, partnering with a, um, sex therapist and a men's group facilitator to hold men's group where there's one woman, me, um, but to offer this to men. And I'm super excited to do that. And that's also on my website.

Willow:

Love

Leah:

excited to hear about this. I've got people I will refer you to. And so Fehr is spelled F E H R www.IreneFehr.Com. Be sure to go check her out and thanks everyone for tuning in. Also stay tuned because next up it's Dr. Willow and Leah and we're going to dish it all out.

Announcer:

Now, our favorite part, the dish.

Leah:

Wow, very important topic.

Willow:

Oh my God. I know so many HSPs, males, females, and everyone in between actually. And, um, you know, I think what we're swimming in culturally is a lot of desensitization and it takes a lot of courage to be a sensitive person in this world and to sensitize yourself further. And that is of course, the work that we do is to help people find more sensation and more capacity for Pleasure and happiness in their bodies. And I think that, um, you know, helping couples specifically, like understand the highly sensitive person and the person who doesn't really have a frame of reference for that because they're, they're very comfortable in that sort of more desensitized environment. Yeah.

Leah:

person, all the numbing you practice in order to get out of the hell of being overstimulated. I mean, that's something that I really relate to. It's, this is, you, you, the reactions you get from other people when you can't contain this much sensation in your system is really unpleasant. You feel like you're, there's a feeling of like rejection or being too much or you know, all the things that she touched on and then, you know, getting through it other social things and so it's just very easy to turn to drugs and alcohol and food and shopping and sex and ways to sort of get out of all of this sensation. I think that's probably been a part of my issue with food my whole life. is I'm just trying to get away from whatever this sensation is in my system that feels like I can't manage it. And so I want to, I want to, I need something else to change the sensation. Because you just don't know how to slow the world down enough to figure out what's going on. And so, and you have to be in the world,

Willow:

Right.

Leah:

know, you got no choice. And then,

Willow:

go off grid, I mean, which is always an option.

Leah:

right, and then I think all the like mothers out there who are barely hanging on. I mean, think about all, I mean, I get so, I can be so overly stimulated around young babies and lots of kids. Um, or too many pets all in the backyard, you know, if there's like five dogs in one place, it's like, oh my god, overload, and I love dogs. Um, Or too many kids like at a hotel pool, I just can't enjoy myself. I, and I have to use all of my meditative tools of just zoning out noise, which I have learned to be very good at. I can really be in kind of crazy environments and I tune it all out. You know, but you just think about that and you don't know, you don't know how much people are struggling that sometimes we take for granted.

Willow:

to maintain like a sense of presence and balance in the moment, yeah, it can be really intense. I, you know, I've always been a highly sensitive person, but I've been very fortunate to be able to, I think the Qigong has been a huge part of what's been going on. you know, and force fields around me. Cause I mean, I've been working with people and their bodies for over 20 years and like going deep into people's somatic stuff and, you know, holding space for them and their overwhelm. And I think doing that for so long at such a deep level has really allowed me to like, like I can go to festivals and I can, you can be next to the airport or the, you know, the freeway and the noise and stuff. It's also HSPs, For some, noise is a huge thing, you know, whereas others, noise isn't such a huge thing. So, there's all kinds of factors. Um, she mentioned the, the name of the woman who sort of coined the term and wrote a book on it. I don't remember, but,

Leah:

I don't either. But, well, I'll attune to it during the editing and make sure it's in the show notes.

Willow:

cool. Yeah. It's a, it's a really important thing for people to know about because even if you are not an HSP, the chances that you know one is very, very high. And so it will help you, um, be in relationship to them in a different way.

Leah:

Yeah, it kind of also reminds me of a little bit of the erotic blueprints and sort of if you were to categorize. You know, again, the two combinations that may struggle the most together are the energetic and the sexual.

Willow:

Mm hmm.

Leah:

know, the sexual is just like, come on, it's not that hard. It's just, be spontaneous, like it's, it's fun, you know, and where the energetic is like, I need things just so, you know, and don't come too fast, you know, like your energy is too much, you know, and just always trying to navigate this thing. Um. Yeah, it's, it's wild and I, and I, one of the things I would have loved to have gotten into more in the interview had we had time and we can navigate this the next time is really exploring when it's, um, when a man has this responsive desire and is a highly sensitive person How is that? And it may not, there may not be any unique features between a man's experience and a woman's experience, but I can't tell you how many times I've come across women or I've been in a relationship myself where it seemed like there, I was, my libido was higher, my desire was higher. Their sensitivity was higher. It made it kind of tricky. Um, they're always oftentimes feeling like, why won't you just fuck me? You know? Yeah, I know you've worked with clients too where it's like, it's a different, what you would normally call gender wise in a heterosexual relationship, the female partner wanting less sex than the male partner. And when that role gets reversed, it's a, it's another dynamic that I think this type of information could help solve.

Willow:

Oh, for sure. Yeah, and I'm sure Irene has that, that dynamic that she supports as well. Um, yeah, it's, it's such a, it's such a journey. I feel like, um, you know, intimacy, into me I see, it is the best way that we can learn about ourselves is through, um, through being intimate with others. And that doesn't mean just sexually, but just, like, you and I have an intimate relationship, you know, it's like, there are many ways And remember the three pillars that we always talk about with intimacy are trust, trust in yourself, so that you can trust that no matter what happens, you're with that other person, you can come back home to yourself. So trust vulnerability, that level of trust inside of yourself is going to allow you to be vulnerable, which is going to open up a whole new, uh, flow of, of communication and energy between the two of you, trust, vulnerability, and then presence. And presence comes very organically and naturally when we have that trust and vulnerability loop going between. Two or more people can be multiple people in a group as well.

Leah:

and if you really want to practice attunement as, you know, a true skill for real mastery when it comes to sexuality and being able to open yourself in another person, you don't get there without those three things.

Willow:

Intimacy is it. Yeah, for sure.

Leah:

well, thanks, this

Willow:

All right. Y'all. Yeah. Ciao.

Announcer:

Thanks for tuning in. This episode was hosted by Tantric Sex Master Coach and Positive Psychology Facilitator, Leah Piper, as well as by Chinese and Functional Medicine Doctor and Taoist Sexology Teacher, Dr. Willow Brown. Don't forget, your comments, likes, subscribes and suggestions matter. Let's realize this new world together.

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Dr. Willow Brown

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Leah Piper

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Irene Fehr

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