The Sex Reimagined Podcast

Damien Diecke: Dating After #MeToo - How to Stay Authentic While Reading Women's Energy | #112

• Leah Piper, Dr. Willow Brown, Damien Diecke • Season 3 • Episode 112

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Meet Damien Dieke, founder of the School of Attraction and Dangerous Men Retreats. After experiencing his own painful breakup and journey through the pickup artist world, Damien discovered a more authentic path to masculine development. Today, he guides men worldwide in integrating their full spectrum of masculine energy - from sensitivity to healthy aggression.


EPISODE HIGHLIGHTS

  • Why "nice guy" behavior actually masks manipulation and resentment
  • How to stay connected to your desires while reading others' energy
  • The importance of accessing and integrating healthy aggression
  • Understanding the impact of childhood wounds on adult relationships


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Leah:

Hello, hello, hello! Hello, you sex reimagined listener. It's your girls, Leah Piper and Dr. Willow Brown, and we had such a fun guest today.

Willow:

Yes, Damian Dieke we had so much fun talking to him all about how men can step up to their authentic, true, masculine selves. He's the founder of the School of Attraction. He's also the founder of the Dangerous Men Retreats. That sounds fun. Leah and I would like to go be a fly on the wall for those retreats. Um,

Leah:

get dangerous.

Willow:

Yeah, and he's an author as well. Sincere Seduction. Oh my gosh. Lover of Learning for Life and host of School of Attraction podcast. Okay, School of Attraction podcast. That's probably the best way to get to know Damien. Leah is on the podcast. So go check out that episode and I will be soon. But check out this podcast right now. You're going to love it.

Leah:

All right, you guys, you know what to do. Tune in, turn on and fall in love with Damien.

Announcer:

Welcome to the Sex Reimagined Podcast, where sex is shame free and pleasure forward. Let's get into the show.

Leah:

Well, we're down under today, friends.

Willow:

With Damien. And he's on the Gold Coast of Australia. He was just telling me it's very bright and early there. Is it golden? Is it a golden morning?

Damien:

It is, it is, in fact, the weather has not been too shabby this time of year. I noticed, I noticed that you didn't dare to do the fake Australian accent this time when you said my location. Now that we're recording.

Leah:

Do people do that to you a lot?

Damien:

That!

Willow:

that's funny. Okay, so today we're diving into this very important topic of the crisis of the male identity, which, you know, I was just chatting with Damien before we pressed record and talking about how, you know, many of us over here in America are thinking about leaving. Where else in the world could we live? We've got some serious leaders who are in crisis of male identity for sure. So, let's dive into this topic Damien and just tell us, like, how did you get started on this? Where did it come from? What's your Genesis story?

Damien:

Yeah, sure. So, um, when I was a young guy, uh, you know, still at university, I think is the best place to start. I was in a, with my high school sweetheart, and I was in a space where as a guy, I was a typical, um, you know, um, if we talk attachment styles, I was very anxiously attached as a guy. And the relationship ended up in a space where, um, I felt I had no respect in the relationship. I was blaming her for everything. I'm still a young guy. Not enough self awareness to think about what my role is. And, you know, she ended up cheating on me. A few other things, which isn't my fault, but you know, relationships are a two person dynamic and it ended badly. And I was very angry and very resentful at that point in my life. And so I went through this phase where I'm like, okay, well, women started this. Um, I'm just going to go and get what I want from women. Their, their, their feelings, their issues, that's their problem. They started

Willow:

care about that

Damien:

it's a terrible space,

Willow:

did like a 180, it sounds like.

Damien:

a little bit of one. Yeah. Um, a lot of people go through this at some point and they, they, they handle it in different ways. But of course, okay. So I was going through this. And I was very lucky. I had some incredible friends who, so I, I was going through this, but the same time starting to get really into self development and self awareness. And a lot of my friends started to recognize the work of, well, recommend the work of David Dieda and men's work and men's self development. And I think they probably looked at my issues with my ex and that kind of stuff. And they were thinking about that as well. And they started to get me really heavily involved in this work. And I started to go to a number of. Men's work events, like paid men's work retreats to help myself. And, you know, my view, obviously, not surprisingly, one of the big things that changed was my relationship to women, um, throughout that program. It was, it was, it was massive. It was like life changingly massive. I mean, my taste in women changed like that over a weekend as well, which was interesting to change from like,

Willow:

want to hear more about that. Yeah.

Damien:

Yeah, I mean, my taste in women changed from, um, I guess pretty sweet, not necessarily so bright blonde To like sassy, opinionated, strong, like brunette women.

Willow:

Oh, very interesting.

Damien:

wild, yeah. Um, and so, and so I went through that anyway. And then at the same time, other friends of mine were getting up into the, like, the pickup artist world. We all kind of, you guys probably remember that. It was a bit of a thing that hit the scene in the early 2000s. And so yeah, at this point I'm 23 and my friends say to me, Hey Damien, let's, let's go and pick up chicks in a bar, like.

Willow:

mm,

Damien:

mean, that sounds like fun. Uh, and I got, it was interesting, what I saw was this whole community of guys. First of all, I saw what they were being taught was essentially this idea of playing little manipulative head games with women. You know, it's not like full on narcissistic manipulation, but it was a lot of like head games, a lot of kind of Deception and lying. A lot of this kind of weird stuff that was going on. They'd put a pretty bow on it, but essentially that was what was happening. And it was very opposite to what I learned in men's work, because one of the things that helped me so much in men's work was things like your integrity and your self esteem are linked. So you can't have poor integrity and have a real self esteem at the same time. They're linked, because if you have to lie or play games with people for them to like you, you know that you're teaching your self conscious, your subconscious, I'm not really worthy of the praise or the adoration or the way people respond to me. And so it's this link, and that helped me so much with my own self esteem. And so I watched that happening, and I watched something interesting going on. So all these guys, you get these guys, and some of them, a lot of them weren't, but some of them were doing really well, sexually, they were doing well with women. Women wouldn't date them, but sexually they were doing well. But what would happen is if these men had a weekend where they didn't pull, they had a week where they didn't pick up a girl, they would crash, they'd be mean, and they'd be You know, unpleasant people. And, you know, you realize that the whole self esteems were hinged on women's responses to them. It was really women with a drug to fill the psychological pain that we're dealing with. A similar way to me, maybe for a different reason.

Willow:

Wow.

Damien:

so that's kind of the origin of where I started realizing that there was a better way to teach men. There was a huge need. And the only people with open arms for men at that point who were struggling in dating were pickup artists. So for me, it was okay. Well, men are struggling. In this area, the only people offering support and not doing a healthy job, psychologically, for the men. And that was my, kind of, that's where I started to get really passionate. I just couldn't get it out of my head. I had a good finance job and I left it to do this and everyone thought I was insane. Um,

Willow:

When did you switch over

Damien:

When I was 26, I started the company and, uh, yeah.

Willow:

So you've been, you've been guiding men and helping men to just learn how to heal their wounds and fill their own emptiness, right? And become better men. And really, I imagine also learn how to understand women as part of it.

Damien:

Yeah, I mean, there's two parts to what I do. One is the men's work, which is where I do my own men's retreats now, with the guys. But the other is still, I mean, I'm with them, talking to girls, I'm watching them, seeing what they do. Except what they're doing is not head games and manipulation, it's, it's just more what we'd expect. Yeah, it's just having a chat, getting to know someone, being willing to walk away if you don't actually click. You're not trying to pick up every girl you meet and, you know, it's the basic stuff, actually. Um, but that can be deceptively difficult.

Willow:

Uh huh.

Damien:

Yeah.

Leah:

Now, Damien, you have a podcast. You have the School of Attraction podcast. And, um, you know, I remember when you guys, when you and I were talking on your show, we talked a little bit about like Tantra and the New Age man. And, um, you know, there's sometimes we kind of joke about, you know, Some of the guys that kind of come into these spiritual environments who, you know, they're really getting in touch with all their feelings and all these things and all the woo woo and, and it's almost like they become ultra feminine, which has kind of backfires for a woman who wants to kind of bask in the masculine presence of a guy who's like strong in that presence. And, and so can you say a little bit about you know, where do you think men are going wrong? Here they are, they're doing this more emotional work, they're becoming the Tantra man, and yet they're not actually scoring the kind of relationships with the kind of women that they're most desiring, who oftentimes come to these types of workshops.

Damien:

Uh, yeah, I mean, I see, I mean, I see a big problem, especially in Gold Coast, Australia, where I living. It exists in a lot of places, but I see this, I guess what I often call the narcissistic spiritual person. And, and so it's, it's, look, I mean, the funny thing is in a lot of the world, people will go, well, I'm. I'm a more successful lawyer than you. I'm a, I'm a, you know, I'm doing better with my law firm. I'm doing better with this. I'm doing, and there's a competition. It's, it's, it's a very human thing. And, but yes, exactly. But in my head, I mean, my understanding has always been that's not meant to happen in the spiritual space. Uh, it feels very unspiritual to say I'm more spiritual than

Willow:

I'm more spiritual. I'm more enlightened than you.

Damien:

It feels even less, it feels even less. It's appropriate to take a photo that shows how spiritual you are, to show the world how spiritual you are. The whole thing doesn't match. It doesn't fit together right. And the funny

Leah:

yeah, you'll find it in any church on any Sunday. You're gonna find it in any like, um, you know, dance, uh, gathering, you know, so yeah. Any festival, you're gonna see people trying to out spiritulize each other.

Damien:

Yeah, you really are. And of course the downside is too though, that the better you are at the narcissistic marketing side of things, the more people are going to find you. So unfortunately, those are the people who often, not always, but often rise to the top in these spaces, which is a shame. Because I've met some really great people, and they have clients, but they don't have the same level of success. Their visibility or their voice isn't heard. And, and, and, just because your voice is all over social media, absolutely doesn't mean you're right. Uh, you know, it just means you're interesting.

Leah:

Right.

Damien:

Uh, but anyway, so I see this and why, why, why is this of interest? This is of interest because essentially what you're trying to do is you're playing a game to get the most votes. Not everyone, but a lot of people in that space. And what gets a lot of the votes is the push for the more soft, sweet side of men's masculinity. Because there is, I mean, rightfully so in comparison to the old fashioned 1950s, 1940s, teach a boy to swim by throwing him in the deep end and laugh about it kind of thing. Um, that was needed, some more softness, some more access to the softer side of the masculine. But what's happened is, because there's so much applause for when we do that for men, It's been overdone. It's been overcooked. And I see that a lot. I see men who are in such a space where, you know, I'm not a, I'm not a hyper masculine guy, but I meet some of these guys and it, either he feels really sweet and really nice, but like, as a man, there's this weird kind of thing where you feel like, Okay, this is gonna sound really mean. If you're talking to a girl, and I, and I, you know, just jumped in front of you and started talking to her instead of you, you wouldn't do anything. Like, there's, there's, there's no through, there's no bite. I, I can't, that feels awful. And I would never do that to someone. It's just, it's just this weird awareness you have as a man. All men have that. You know, would I respect you as a man? And there's something missing. Or you get the flip side, and what you get is, you get the real, it's like he's a pickup artist, but he's the, spiritual version. You know, when you go in there and you shake his hand, he starts to do these weird things, trying to assert his dominance in strange ways. You know, this is my domain where my harem of women try to come in. So you get a lot of that stuff going on. And I know that's a little bit off, off the question you asked Leah, but this is the thing that I experienced a lot in spiritual circles for men. Um,

Leah:

do you work with a lot of men who have the nice guy complex?

Damien:

a lot, a lot. Uh, probably 70 percent of the guys that I work with,

Willow:

And how do you, how do you work with them? Yeah, like what's the um, what is it that they're coming and complaining or, you know, what's their issue, what's their problem, what's having them come to you to, to work on this with you. Are they aware that they have the nice guy complex syndrome, whatever, and then, um, what do you do to kind of help them find their way to balance with their feminine and masculine within themselves?

Damien:

So it depends on whether they come to me through the dating coaching of the men's work. Um, I always, I think most of the men who come to me should do men's work first. That's, that's the bottom line. That's what they need. I think a lot of men could do that and they don't need the dating coaching. I mean, it would be nice, but it's not necessary. Once you've got things aligned, I think socially you'll be in a much better space anyway. Uh, and so I'll talk about that cause I think that's what the men need and that's what I work with them. Okay. Part of what I do in my men's work, which is, I guess, in some ways, controversial to talk about there, there is some aggression training in the men's work because what we create in that

Willow:

get in touch with that. Got that testosterone, man. Rock it.

Leah:

out. I mean, I want to feel your hunger and

Willow:

think that's hot. Yeah.

Leah:

Unleash the beast!

Damien:

Um, but the guys struggle, you know, they, they, because we create this close and like intimate bond between the men in the beginning. It's. You know, the feedback that the men give each other, I just first teach them to give each other negative feedback, and they struggle with that enough. To give another man negative feedback and look him in the eye and say, this is where I don't trust you. Oi, that's, you watch the men struggle with that. The simple stuff. Yeah, um, or, but then when you start to really up the ante, and they have to It's really important around aggression to be comfortable to hold the space for someone to be angry to, and not be reacting. Uh, look, as a man, I mean, women can be very angry at a man as well in a relationship. It's very important to be able to hold your space and not get reactive, and not go into your child and start attacking back. You have to be able to hold the space for a woman. Practicing with men is a fantastic space for that. And guys really struggle when I ask them, Okay, it's the other man's job to practice holding space. You need to give him aggression, like, not physical, but just attack him verbally. Ooh, that's so hard for men to do, for a lot of the men I work with. You know, you can watch men in a group and they'll say, they're supposed to be as, as, you know, um, they're supposed to be harsh to each other. And then they'll just say, you're not a nice person. I don't like you. Uh, it's like, that's the meanest thing you can, you can,

Leah:

Right, right, right.

Willow:

Come on, pick it up a couple notches. So what is the conditioning around being the nice guy and being the diplomatic one? And like, why, where is that, why is that conditioning so prevalent, do you think?

Damien:

So it's, now I'll talk about it, about myself, because I typically fell into this growing up. And this is of course why I have so much compassion, I think, to some degree. So, you, we have this, we can grow up with this relationship to love. Which is, if I am a good boy, then I deserve love. And if I'm not a good boy, I don't deserve love. And so this is really critical, because it becomes a matter of, if I disappoint people, if people look at me with disappointment of some form. I'm not worthy of being loved. And so anytime someone looks at you or feels disappointed or hurt by you, there's an existential crisis of my deserving of affection or of care. And it's painful. And we do it to ourselves. We don't need other people to do it to us. But obviously when people are angry at us, they will do it to us. If my girlfriend's mad at me for something, I haven't done a huge thing, but she's just having a, you know, we're just having a regular fight. She will do that because she's feeling disappointed with me in the moment, right? Like whether I'm right to blame or wrong to blame doesn't matter. That's what she'll do to me. And that makes it easy for me to do to myself or men to do to themselves. And that's a, it's, it's, it's horrible. And so people grew up with that. They're taught by their parents. They're taught by, um, um, often what you get. And I, have you guys read, uh, No More Mr. Nice Guy?

Willow:

no. Oh.

Leah:

great book.

Willow:

Oh, I haven't never even heard

Damien:

But

Leah:

gosh. I can't believe I haven't turned you on to that yet, Willow. You'll love it.

Damien:

It's written by a psychotherapist, and he noticed that a number, a lot of the men who came to him suffered with a similar type of problem, which was long term relationships, women would stop showing sexual interest in them. There'd also be some sort of event for their sexual frustration, like there'd often be this weird toxic way they dealt with it. They would have these toxic explosions in relationships. There's this pattern that he recognized with men. And anyway, uh, yes, he saw this pattern arising with guys where we would learn this lesson about love, um, and I can't remember, sorry, Dr. Willow, what was the question you asked me before I said

Willow:

Oh, well that's a good question. I don't Ha ha ha

Damien:

This organic flow of conversation has its limits. Um,

Willow:

Damien. Pretend, pretend we didn't forget what I asked you. Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha!

Damien:

so anyway, look where I'm going with this is, is that it's, it's, it's very deeply rooted thing that we learned from our parents. So he says in the, the researcher says that the therapist says that it often comes around, Parents and parent relationships. So you, you very often see situations, for example, a highly, a very strongly womanizing father and a, and a, and a struggling mother. And then you get this, you can get enmeshment, or you can get other things where you get the mother making, uh, telling the son don't become like your father. Don't become like your father. Or the son just takes it on like, look at how much pain my mother's in. I'm never going to be anything like my father. And what they do is they throw the baby out with the bathwater. So they see the hyper masculine side of things and they go, well, that's all bad. I'm not going to be like him. I'm not going to disappoint women like my dad disappointed my mom.

Willow:

Mm.

Damien:

Or, you know, you get, you can get single moms with pain with relationships over and over. You can get all kinds of things, but you, it's just, it's just this thing of seeing the pain from the mother and latching onto that

Leah:

Yeah. It seems, and it seems also that, so it's like that nice guy, he's confused like, I'm such a nice guy. Why aren't the

Willow:

the problem? Yeah.

Damien:

yeah,

Leah:

and

Willow:

I think nice girls have that problem too, though, I want to say, it goes both

Leah:

but here's the feeling that I think a lot of women, now, there's a gender thing. Women can be a pushover. And I think there's a different thing here. I really do. Because I think also, we're friends with a lot of these guys, first and foremost. We've gone to school with them. We know, if you're a lady listening, you know who I'm talking about.

Willow:

friends, right?

Leah:

They're sweet. We often go, why aren't I into him? If I could just like him, if I just had chemistry with him, like that's who I should like. But I always kind of pick the guy who kind of treats me a little bit like shit. Like he's more interesting. I'm more attracted to him. He's got more chemistry. And, and so, and so he's watching this. Like, I can't believe she's going out with that douche, with that asshole who treats her like this. And so there's just this anger that starts to build up. Like, I'm the one that deserves you. And I can't believe you like that schmuck. And so we're kind of in agreement. Like, yeah, I can't believe I like that schmuck too. But at the end of the day, everyone's confused. But if you really sit with it, you realize you can't actually trust the nice guy. He, he gives too much of himself away and he's got a hidden agenda and he'll flip on a switch and he's got an angry side because he's built up all this resentment and outrage for not being chosen. And so then there's an overreaction and so you kind of realize there's a reason why I don't choose you because I don't trust you. Because you're not really honoring what you really desire. What you really want. You're not really standing up for yourself. You're also kind of a pushover.

Willow:

of sovereignty, a lack of core, a lack of kahones, essentially.

Leah:

of core. I think, I think an abandonment, a self abandonment of turning yourself into a pretzel to try to get love. Instead of just being who you are. And so what ends up happening, and I know women do this too, we have our own version of tying ourselves up into a pretzel to try to be what we think the object of our desire will love. And we'll never get love that way because people don't fall in love with the falsehood. People only fall in love.

Willow:

they do, but then it all crumbles and falls apart. Yeah.

Leah:

Yeah, I mean then sometimes people fall in love with an ideal.

Willow:

Yeah.

Leah:

know, uh, but they're not really being

Willow:

and falls apart.

Leah:

Yeah, but I think that also comes from over here. I still think it's, it starts with an inauthenticity on this side of the street. Oh. Thoughts,

Damien:

I mean, a nice guy is never, is not a nice guy.

Leah:

He's not a nice guy. That's

Damien:

a nice guy is superficially nice. It's, it's a, it's, we don't, it's not done consciously, but it is still a manipulation, act of manipulation. And I think that's why women don't trust it. You know that he's trying to get something from you. And that's how nice guys typically behave is they get outraged. And you mentioned that, Leah, they get outraged when they don't get what they hoped they would because they feel owed it. One of the things that they often do is it's a silent contract. It's like, if you do this, if I do all this for you, then you owe me that back. But the conversation doesn't happen. You know, so

Leah:

Yeah, it's like they'll bend over backwards to do like favors that are too nice. They're too generous. Like they're a little too much, right? Because he's giving to get. then when he doesn't get, and a woman's just kind of saying, well, gee, thanks. What a nice gift you're giving me. That's so generous of you, but they're not bringing any more to

Willow:

They're not reciprocating. So, so when one of these nice guys comes to you, Damien, like, uh, you know, really unconscious about what they're doing, and, and, and, and how it's playing out in their life, and why they're not getting the girl they want, like, what's the process? What, how do you first, like, awaken them to the reality of it all? And then

Damien:

So the one of the big things that I do is I start getting them connected to. The practice is to get connected to your really dark part of who you are. Like, the part of you that comes out a lot of different times. If you're doing a group sport, it's like, when you're in a group, a lot of these guys aren't, because a lot of guys already into group sport have a healthy connection to the darker side. Um, but you know, it's what you might get if you're doing gym alone. You know, you're trying to get out the last weight, but really connecting to that, that dark side. It's connecting to, but then you have to start to bring that over because you have to start to enter the uncomfortable realm of accessing that when you're around women. Because what men do, not all men, a lot of the guys I work with, they'll be with me, and they could look at a woman over there in the far side of the room, and they can say, Oh, wow, she's hot. Oh, look at her. Right? And he's starting to starting to access that part of him. And it's like, a little bit. But then I say, cool, let's go talk to her. And he goes up and he's like, hey, I'm Damien. Oh, really nice to meet you. It was great. It's like, oh no, no, no, it's all gone. It went away because there's that sense of I need to take all of that and I need to bury it so she doesn't see it. Bury it, bury it, bury it deep, deep down. And because it's difficult to

Leah:

to present safe, is that where, is that what

Damien:

Safe and sweet, because if she thinks you're predatory, because obviously men can be predatory too. But there's a big chasm between sweet and predatory.

Willow:

yeah, there's a lot of room in between to play.

Damien:

exactly. And they feel like if they are seen as predatory, they're horrible people. It's the nice guy stepping in again. Like if a woman looked at me like that, oh my god. That's pain. That's ultimate pain. And so they stay clear of it. But that's the transition they have to make. And I have to get men to be in a space where they're talking to a woman or they're practicing being around, not even talking to women. They just have to be around women and practice not letting go of that feeling. That's so uncomfortable. Because for them it starts to feel like they're starting to be sleazy. They're not doing anything. I said, I said, don't look at the women. Don't, you're not trying to check them out up and down and do anything weird or, no, just be aware they're there and that they're attractive and just feel the feelings and don't let go. Let them linger. Let them stay even with the women. Oh, it's hard for them.

Willow:

Okay, okay, yeah, so you're getting him in touch with his, like, virility, basically, like his animalistic, like, ooh, I'm attracted to her, let's go over there, and instead of putting on the mask of super nice guy, then what would you coach them, like, how would you coach them to stay connected to that desire and the dark side, the virility within them to, like, how? And they have no idea what to say or do, so do you give them the words, or do you?

Damien:

No, I don't want to change the words because it's usually not the words a guy says. A guy can say, you know, hey, I saw you guys over here and I want to come and say hello and he can do it with balls or you can do it without. He can do it either way. A woman, you feel it as a woman, right?

Willow:

Oh, for sure.

Damien:

it's not him looking up and down, it's just how he looks you in the eye. And you know it straight away.

Willow:

So we could say the same exact thing in two different ways. Yeah.

Damien:

Correct. I don't want him to say anything different.

Leah:

is that really what you're helping men do is you're helping them harness that they feel desire in their system. You're helping them stay connected to what's turning them on in the room.

Damien:

Correct.

Leah:

Not lose the thread of their turn on, not do anything necessarily about it, but to stay feeling it and just allowing that to course through their system and then to watch what happens as a result.

Willow:

Yeah, and to have the experience that it doesn't mean they're sleazy. Like, to actually feel that viscerally, I think that's probably a turning point for the men that you're working

Damien:

it's big. But if I don't, if I can't do the men's work with them first, It's slow because it is so deeply rooted in them. Not to want women to see that part of them, that they can spend their whole lives, it's shameful.

Leah:

for that part of them. Look, I want to walk into a room full of men who are all doing that at the same time. I'd preferably like to be the object of their desire as well. If I could just have, like, a moment where they all desire me, and I could just feel that, like, just dripping off their bodies, I can't think of anything more fun or intoxicating.

Damien:

you

Willow:

pretty delightful experience,

Damien:

tell you what's wild, okay? When I first did my first men's work event, right? There was a lot of, like, aggression style work that we were doing. We did a lot more than just that, but it, it, the aggression style was being built up over the weeks. Because it was a multi week program. And at the end, we're like, we're in this amazing, like, just, like, I wanna kill you space with the other guys. Respectfully, in a nice way, in like an empowering way. And we were outside of the main hall, we would do our training, and then he'd bring us into the hall. The whole six weeks, seven weeks would be just eye contact with the other men, like feeling, being present and being okay with our aggression. And we bring in a hall and there's a line of women standing there.

Willow:

Mmm.

Damien:

was the line. None of us knew it was coming. And then you have to be present with the women. You're just filled in this space.

Willow:

I love that.

Leah:

How do the women react with all that juicy testosterone that

Willow:

super turned on.

Damien:

They were. I mean, well, they were, they knew what was coming. The women were women who were, he, that, yeah, from the Tantra group. And so, you know, obviously it was a controlled environment thing, but it was, yes. I mean, I've spoken to women who participated in that and it's like, it's, it's potent

Willow:

They're like, finally!

Leah:

yeah

Damien:

been on the receiving end of women's groups and then being the man in the group that they

Willow:

Uh huh. Uh

Damien:

And I know it's wild. You can, you can be around these women who. I don't know, if someone just showed me a picture, I'd be like, yeah, yeah, okay, yeah, she's okay. But all of a

Willow:

then you see her in her element,

Damien:

something happens, and you're like, oh, wow, like you just ignite as a guy, and I'm sure it's the same for a woman.

Willow:

yeah. Yeah, yeah,

Damien:

yeah.

Leah:

it was interesting we did this um, I ever hosted this BDSM scene night where there was three volunteers? And, um, there were three women and, and so there were these scene demos, you know, and, you know, we various body shapes and body styles and we're getting naked and the whole room is watching and we're being put into these scenes and it was really interesting to hear the men's feedback. This one woman had a really big capacity for sensation, so she could handle a lot of, like, impact when they were showing, like, the impact tools. And the men were getting so lit up by watching this one demo model be able to take, like, really hard spankings and really hard floggings, and they were like, it invoked so much primal energy in the room. And they were like, look, she wasn't necessarily the most attractive woman up on the stage, but she became the most attractive woman because of her capacity to like meet intensity. And it was like every man in the room felt permission by her to like bring it, you know, to just bring like this primal fierceness inside of them because she wanted it. And you could feel her desire for that. It was really fun to sort of watch that engagement and to see the reactions of these guys.

Damien:

Yeah. I mean, it's not, I think it's not for nothing that the, the, the, the rape fantasy thing is so strong on both sides, and no one wants to actually be committing horrible acts, but it's just that. That hunger for that raw,

Willow:

Yeah, that's sort of that primal, yeah, like, how can I stop myself? You're so fucking hot, like, I,

Damien:

And you know, that's the crazy thing, right? Every, like, not every, but most romance novels, like, or movies, or the stuff that gets women really hot and bothered is, is like, is a guy being dangerous, but not to her. He's capable of being extremely dangerous, but

Leah:

but he, protects her, but the obstacle is always around some sort of no element. I did a scene where I was gonna be objectified, and it was so hot! I loved

Damien:

ha!

Leah:

being objectified! I was like, okay, take off your clothes and, you know, you can do everything but this. You know, so people are grabbing me and touching me and looking at me all up and down, and I fucking loved it! And, um And I wouldn't have been able to love it 15 years ago. It would have freaked me the fuck out. So I think there's also like a maturation process in your ability to allow yourself to go to these more primal parts of your psyche that allows you to take a look at, you know, what I would call the no element. One of the things that I think everyone knows and likes is the yes element. We all want to be worshiped. We all want to be understood. We all want to be cherished. We all want to feel love. Romance is Wonderful. Having companionship and security feels so good. I mean, these are all wonderful yes elements, but the no elements are like, you know, breaking rules and being naughty and power dynamics and longing and jealousy and all these things that we deny our turn on, but in fact have an incredible amount of charge. And so I think men having permission to get in touch with that is really vital. I think for women to be able, at least I can speak for myself, I feel like in order to be, like, in long term relationships that get really, really safe and comfortable, we gotta have a place to kind of bring the dirty stuff back to the table and, and throw down with some of these darker elements. And if we can do it consciously, it just feels like that's even more safe.

Willow:

I'm curious what you've seen Damien, like, after the Me Too movement, like, was there a big drop, because I feel like a lot of the men that I'm coaching, they're afraid to bring that, you

Leah:

Yeah, with good reason.

Willow:

yeah, and so I'm just curious, like, you've been doing this a long time, did you see a big shift during that time?

Damien:

I saw a huge shift. It's, I, I, not all men, but I saw all of a sudden, I mean it used to be rare that I'd get a guy who was like, oh I don't want to be reported for this or I'm scared of what the security's going to say or. And now, I mean, it's, it's, it's huge. The number of guys who are genuinely afraid of their careers or their, you know, one guy will say, Oh, I, you know, I was talking to a girl in a bar and, and, and, and we got along really well and, and everything was on. And I think she wanted to come home with me, but you know, I didn't want to ask her cause I'm a doctor and she knew my name and blah, blah, blah, blah. And it's like, you know, he wasn't doing anything sleazy. Like it was a great interaction and she could have said no, and that would have been fine too. But the point is, he's just too scared and. And

Willow:

she was probably like, God, he didn't ask me home. What the fuck? I was ready to go.

Leah:

Right.

Damien:

in that. And the number of times my clients inadvertently insult a girl, not verbally, but through inaction. It's like, she's like, oh, what happened? I thought,

Willow:

Thought we were going there.

Leah:

Yeah,

Damien:

he lose interest? What, what did I do

Leah:

now we right, right. What

Damien:

Yeah.

Willow:

So it turns into like this head fuck back and forth kind of almost.

Damien:

And it's got, the other thing, actually talk to Willow what you said, and Leah what you were talking about. Yeah. There's this problem which is, we understand context in public, right, which is like, it would be appropriate to say certain things to a woman that you've just met, that wouldn't be appropriate to a woman you've just met, say, as opposed to on a second date. And there are certain things that wouldn't be appropriate to say to a woman at work, but it would to a woman in a bar. We understand the context when it's in a public setting. But the context also exists in a more private setting, right, so there are things that are inappropriate to say to It would be weird out of context to say to my own girlfriend, but if we're in the bedroom and we've created an environment for it, those limitations also are supposed to disappear. But instead what we're being taught is no, you're never meant to objectify women, or you're never meant to take control and treat her like her. If she wants that, if that, you know, if she wants to be like, do what you want to me, it means take control, like make her feel like she's your toy, your slave, in that context. Not outside of that, but in the

Willow:

yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Leah:

And I think it's hard because a lot of women don't even know that they want that. They don't even know like, what

Willow:

There's a lot of

Leah:

especially in sex, there is a payoff for some of these things that you would never want. I don't want anyone outside of my house or bedroom to call me a dirty little slut. But in bed, call me a dirty little slut, please. But don't you dare talk to me like that anywhere else. You know, and I didn't know that would be a turn on until like So it's like having the permission to go, if I wasn't judging this from an angle of I don't want anyone to do this or say this or be this way out there, but there's actually a lot of eros and erotic energy in the bedroom with someone who I'm playing with consensually, then let's go explore the limits of this.

Damien:

One of the things that I get guys to do, I get guys to do because it was massive for me, was, so one of the things I had to really work hard on was being comfortable talking about my own sexual wants and needs or desires or things that I might find interesting. So much shame around that just from my upbringing. And what the one thing that I started, started with was going through, I don't know if you guys have ever, probably, but a sex consent list.

Willow:

Yeah, yeah.

Damien:

You know, it's very common in the BDSM community. This is what I'm, a little bit it's

Willow:

at this level.

Damien:

is a hard no.

Willow:

at that level. Yeah, totally.

Leah:

right.

Damien:

it's a whole list of all the possible things that could turn you on, from the extreme to the mild. And going through that on my own was, my blood pressure was up, my heart rate was up. It was anxiety inducing, not in a good

Willow:

it.

Damien:

Yeah, just talking to myself about

Willow:

Uh huh.

Damien:

But then, oof, what was so amazing, we're starting to introduce that to if you have a new partner who you've just become sexual with. And saying, hey, how do you feel about going through this checklist? Like you both answer the questions together, with someone else. And That was so hard for me in the beginning, but I've noticed for a lot of my clients when they start to do it They're like, oh my god Damien because it brings out you realize that everyone's got little things that they actually go actually, I might like to try that

Willow:

normal.

Damien:

It's so sexy when you both try something new together, you know, or when you It's a weird. It's a crazy thing. And when you

Willow:

So you have your couples do that together, it sounds like.

Damien:

Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. So, um, you know a new sexual partner. So

Willow:

What, what about like in the men's work by itself? Do you ever have them just like, like you were saying when I first did it, just looking at it for myself, do you have them kind of look at

Damien:

I don't. I don't because in the men's group what I do actually with my men's work is I always tell them this is not about women. So I create a very hard line because I don't want men doing the men's work going, I'm doing this to pick up lots of chicks. No. You're doing this for your own self development, nothing to do with women. It's probably going to impact your relationship with women, but this is about you. And so I didn't want to cross that

Willow:

What are, what are the, um, like pillars, or what are the modalities, like what are some of the main, what is the men's work that you lead them through?

Damien:

yeah, so the way that

Leah:

can I ask, can I ask a clarifying question before you go into that? And that is, why is it important? For a man to do that for himself and not have the underlying desire around wanting a relationship with a woman be a part of that.

Damien:

Because I think for a lot of men, um, women as a form of status is a societal, is a thing that we're given very strongly, right? How many women I'm, and all of a sudden, and the other problem that it is, is like women are the prize. This is the, this is the thing I'm aiming for in life that will fulfill me and complete all my, and I want to break that because it's not about that. It's, it's, you have to be. The reason you do all the things, your happiness, your contentness as a man, your, um, your reason being you have to find your purpose in life. These things, this is why you do it. And women will find that version of you attractive. But that version of you is attractive is the version of you you want to be for yourself that makes you the happiest. So it's too risky if I, if I start to become a certain kind of man because I think this women over here will like it. It's not me. It's um, but Hm.

Leah:

that really make your program successful?

Damien:

So, we look at, there's a number of pillars, is a good word for it. So we look at, uh, mother energy. So what was your relationship to the female growing up? Okay, primary caregivers, the women, because that forms our relationship to women and how we see women and our relationship to women, not just mom, but the important female things that father, because that's about how we see ourselves as men, sexually, our masculinity, what that means to us, and our friendships, because a lot of men do not have good friendships. It's a big missing thing. Um, then we look at, uh, shame. Shadow, so shadow being the stuff about us that's not pretty that we, that still guides a lot of our decisions that we don't like to, we don't realize are a part of who we are.

Willow:

subconscious.

Damien:

that stuff. Um, and aggression. So our relationship to aggression and rage. Um, so they're the, the primary areas I may have missed. Oh yes, and our child. Because there's a lot of, uh, for example, yeah, because there's a lot of, actually a lot of, um, Men who are sort of players or you know, stuck in that space. It's actually about trying to make ourselves feel better for the pain we felt around puberty. It's very strong for a lot of guys. It's like, I did without, like, I had all these hormones going through, women thought it was icky and disgusting. And now we have a wounded little child who needs to feel okay about it. And it's not the only reason, but it's a piece of the reason that's never talked about. But that's not the only reason I look at child. And it's interesting, if you want to know where men are most likely to cry, it's child.

Willow:

Interesting.

Damien:

But child is by far the biggest. That's the one that just Everyone gets hit by it, and after we do the exercises we do, everyone's like All the cockiness is knocked out of everyone. It's like, oh, I need a process for a moment.

Leah:

Wow.

Damien:

pain there. There's pain. And I think a lot of it is because at a certain point as we grow up as men, stop crying when you fall over and hurt your knee.

Willow:

Yeah.

Damien:

You know, you watch the little boys, and they're Little boys, young boys are affection sponges. And then all of a sudden it cuts off. Moms often struggle with that.

Willow:

It's almost like a form of castration for young boys. They're cut off from their emotions. Yeah, and it's like

Leah:

My mom was telling this story. I just saw her back in Michigan, uh, last week. And she's telling me the story of my brother and he got hit by a car. He was really, really shook up. I think he was like between the ages of 10 or 12. And you know, you, she could tell he was staying really strong while the paramedic was there, while my aunt Mary was there. And it was like, as soon as he could close the door. It was like he just couldn't hold it anymore, just like this tenderness of like, it was really scary, he got hit by a car, he was on a bike, you know, like, it was scary as shit, but he was like holding it together, you could just see that initiation inside of like going, I'm not allowed to do this anymore, I gotta be strong in front of everybody. But he had this one tender moment in front of my mom where he could just let it crumble. But you could tell how, my mom said you could tell how practiced he had been for the last couple of years of like having that stiff upper lip and you know, and I just, I could feel viscerally that, that transition of like boyhood to trying to figure out how to be a man but you're still so far from being a man. You know, that is such a, such a sweet, tender

Willow:

so interesting, too, to know, and I feel like I've read studies on these, but I can't quote them, but like, you know, you look at the, the women live longer than men, right? And I have always thought, well, definitely estrogen is a piece of the factor, for sure. But it's also like we're, we're invited to emote. Like it's okay for us to emote. We're not holding back all these things our lives long. And there's, and think about how good you feel after a good cry, no matter what gender you claim. And I think that that really, it adds years to our lives because we're getting in touch with a part of ourselves that's really, um, authentic and true that, helps us become more whole. It helps us become more of who we are here to be. And, um, it's such a valuable thing to be able to do. And, you know, I live in Northern California where men's groups are plentiful. And so, you know, just, it's so fun to watch men like go into a men's group for the first time and to just watch their transformation from an objective perspective and to watch how they slowly become more and more in touch with their emotions and their ability to be vulnerable is so much more at the forefront. And that is what creates intimacy, is vulnerability. And you know, when a man is vulnerable with a female partner, it's like, It's such a gift for the woman because all she wants is that piece, that vulnerability. She also wants that strong masculine container, but it's like that balance of the yin and yang within a single individual man is just, um, is magic. It creates magic in the world. Yeah,

Leah:

I think that's an important word full integration because a man who's just vulnerable without the container is a drain on the system. It is like Jesus get your shit together And so we don't want men. We want men to be able to know how to contain us But also be able to be real and raw and stripped down so we can

Willow:

I feel like it's a lot of pressure for men. Go ahead,

Leah:

It is.

Damien:

no, I was just going to say, I just wanted to say something on that thing with men's groups, because 80 percent of men's groups that I've been around. They are emotion sharing groups. That's it. They're not really men's groups as far as trying to integrate the whole thing. Now why is this important? It's important because it's so cathartic. You're absolutely right. It's so cathartic for a guy to be able to share all his pain and be heard. But because it's not a full integrated men's group, you're not, the men aren't being taught it. It's not. Responsibility. Now what I mean by that is, Leah, I think when you say that, what you're really saying is the problem is when a man shares all his emotions, it makes it your responsibility to fix them.

Leah:

Right.

Damien:

Because that's an issue. It is his responsibility. You're there to hold space for him, for him to share, be heard, be understood. But it's his responsibility to do something about what he's experiencing.

Leah:

If, if doing something is what's appropriate, sometimes it's just

Damien:

Well, yeah, sometimes it's just, that's

Leah:

but don't be stuck there. I don't

Damien:

and it's not your job to fix it.

Leah:

yes, exactly, because that, when they get stuck, then it feels like there's a problem that needs fixing, right? And if they're not picking themselves up, then it feels like I gotta pick you up. And, and that's fine on occasion, but not when it's all the time. And I think that's where the nice guy gets in trouble, is because there is a part of the puddling process for him, that still wants mama to just make everything get better. And there is a lack of responsibility.

Damien:

time we shared our emotions, was when mum would make it all better. We haven't had an education past that point as boys, as our emotions stopped. Yeah.

Willow:

for boys going through teenagehood would really support and shift this, this whole dynamic moving forward? Because I mean, women have, they have their, their bodies as an initiation. It's like, okay, I got my period. I am a woman now. You know, men don't really, their voice changes, right? And they get all these hormones and they start having ejaculations, but there's

Leah:

think that's the same same with periods and, and

Willow:

It, it, I

Leah:

throws us a party. Yay, you got your moon cycle. You're a woman now. I

Willow:

I don't, I don't know. It depends on who you are and what you grow up in, I suppose, but

Leah:

well, maybe you growing up in Southern California, you got that, but the

Willow:

I didn't get that. I didn't get that. But, you know, mine was more medical. Like, here's a medical book. This is your womb, and these are your ovaries, and this is how it works. You know, I got that initiation. But I don't think my brothers got that initiation. Like, here's your gonads, and now you've got semen coming out of

Leah:

Right. I think it's only military. I mean, I think, I think the best initiation thing that we have in our culture is if you're Jewish and you have a Bar Mitzvah, or if you go to the military, there's your initiation, but you're right. Like the initiations are lost in our culture in many

Willow:

Yeah, ritual.

Damien:

to be honest, I think women, I think the men's space needs to exist for women too. I think we have a real crisis of masculinity and femininity

Leah:

Okay, great. Yeah. Say, say more about the femininity piece.

Damien:

um, I mean, the issue that we see with women, you guys I'm sure will both agree, is there's this whole thing of what's a woman supposed to be? Are you a mum? Are you a working person? Are you a

Willow:

Are you sexy? Are you supportive?

Damien:

Uh, and you're supposed to be all of them. Uh, are you supposed to be sexual? Are you not supposed to be sexual? Are you supposed to be? Is, is, is to be a slut Empowered is not to be a slut empowered.

Leah:

right, right, right.

Damien:

the

Willow:

Smart, but dumb.

Damien:

and, and the same lessons that we force on boys are forced on women about their views of men and their views of themselves. Right? So just like you said, Leah, I mean, you would be, you would be aghast at some of the stuff that you may be interested in now. That's because, you know, and so all of that, I think it's the same thing. It's, it's yin and yang. It's, it's, that's why I hate the whole, the, the, the, I guess the strong, the extreme feminist kind of thing of, or the red pill thing. Either side you go, because what you end up with is, is it's like, well, this is a man problem. This is a woman problem, but it's a society problem. Both sides are hurting each other with whatever crap is going on

Leah:

I think too, like we, I have a lot of resistance for wanting to purge, even though I have some preferences, I still have a resistance to going, this is what a man should do, this is who a man should be, these are the qualities of the attractive man. Or the safe man, or the strong man, and you gotta put yourself into these boxes in order to present well. It's like, I think, for instance, the effeminate man, who's just naturally more effeminate, should be allowed to delight in who his essence is without the projection of you're not being manly. When it's like bullshit, there's a, there's a, this is a man with a capital M. Just because his essence has a little more effeminate qualities or it presents itself that way, that doesn't mean there isn't somebody that was very attractive or desirable or whatever the case may be. So it's kind of like sometimes I look at men's work and I feel like they're trying to strip guys down so that they look like one mold and then that's Man with the capital M. And so could you speak to that a little bit?

Damien:

I mean, I can't speak to other, to men's work around the world, you know, what other people are doing and what everyone else is doing. Um, all I'm doing when I'm doing

Leah:

is that just something I've noticed?

Damien:

Uh, I think that the difficulty is that we, there's societal rules about what men are meant to be. And I think then when people hear men's work, or I'm trying to connect with my masculine, it's like you're trying to connect with a specific set of traits. Um, I don't know about other men's works, but I know with me, all I'm trying to do is integrate. Your, your aggression, your emotional experiences to be able to share and have, have, have, um, Sovereignty over that part of yourself and, and, and, you know, be able to move across that spectrum in a healthy way. Because what comes out, what emerges when you do that is whoever you are. One of the things I used to say to men a lot is the, the, the most attractive version of you that you should be bringing out, the real you is who you are with good friends and after three beers.

Leah:

Yeah.

Damien:

That's you. That's you. But it's being held back by all the bullshit that we have in our lives. And so the work that I do with the men is the same thing. I'm not teaching you to be a man, I'm just helping you come out. And because you're male identifying, it's going to be whatever that is for you.

Willow:

Mm.

Leah:

I'm a little still unclear about the aggression part. I would love to have some more clarity because I'm hearing some different things. Like, I hear, okay, aggression is like, show up big. Don't back down, have a backbone, tell it like it is, right? So this is just my filter. And then I think, okay, stay in your desire, fucking hold on to it. Don't let it leak out in a slimy way. Hold the kick, carry it, have, feel it, let the rush in. But like, keep it, you don't gotta be crazy. You don't even have to act or respond. You just gotta be in there. Is that also the aggressive element? Or is that different? Okay.

Damien:

any type of work like this that I do with anyone, the big one is being present with what's happening in your body. And being present is not just about what's happening here, it's what's happening here and your feeling is happening there. Because we always reflect what other people are feeling internally. If we shut off to what we feel, we shut off to what other people feel. So, that's the very first work that I'm doing with the men. And so, the goal is to like What I'm teaching men and what I was taught as well when I did it is as a, as a human being, but as a man, because we're doing men's work, your job is to take responsibility for yourself and the people around you.

Leah:

Okay

Damien:

you could go and talk to a woman, being your full masculine, you're connected with your dark side, connected to this, you're not trying to hold anything in, but you are also being sensitive to where she's at. So if you come in there and there's some pull back. You recognize the pullback. You hold back. You pull back, right? Because your, your, your integrity as a man is also about your sensitivity to what you're feeling in those around you. So,

Willow:

them how to read energy then. So

Damien:

correct. Yeah. Yeah. Because that's an integral part of it. You can't just be, it's toxic. If you, if you just be you without any care of what anybody else feels, well, that's starting to get

Willow:

Yeah.

Leah:

But don't you see a lot of people self abandon at that point? It's like they become so concerned about how other people feel that they actually lose themselves.

Damien:

And that's why we focus so heavily on the aggression thing, because they have to be okay and realize that that can be safe, that that can be okay. And even after that, it's a bit of a process or a progress to do that. Um, and so it's, it's, yeah, it's a journey. And this is where, like, the owning your sexual stuff and starting to get into relationships and play. I think play, sexual play, play teaches us a lot about aggression. Like, boys need to play aggressively to learn about managing aggression. We need to play sexually to learn about managing sexual aggression. It's,

Willow:

That's

Damien:

part of that process.

Leah:

So you're teaching them to manage their aggression or allow their aggression so a place to to exist?

Willow:

Sounds like

Damien:

very good question. That's a really good question. Um, yes, what you're learning to do is feel all the aggression and externalize the aggression that's appropriate.

Leah:

Can you give me an example of that?

Damien:

Sure. Um, If I'm in a bar and I see a woman that just, you know, sometimes you can, I'm in a relationship now, but if I was single, you know, and sometimes you just,

Willow:

Even if you're not single, sometimes you get that

Damien:

That's, that's fair. That's fair. But you know, what I mean is, and I'm talking to her, right, and I have that feeling.

Leah:

Right.

Damien:

I'm feeling is always valid. But what I may or may not do is how sexually aggressive I behave at her. So I'm not going up to her and go like, You know, you're hot, I want to take you home and like, throw you on my bed and fuck you till you're raw. I probably won't say that even though I'm feeling that and thinking that, right? It was what I express is about what's going to be, you know, I have to test the waters, I have to, you know, it's understanding that. But not being ashamed of what I, look, what I say to guys a lot of the time is, Why don't you, why don't you do these things that are horrible to other people? Sometimes you want to kill someone, you're so mad you want to murder them. Sometimes you the reason you don't take these actions shouldn't be because you're afraid. It should be because you're deciding not to. If I'm not being sexual around a woman because I'm afraid of it, we have a problem. If I'm not doing it because it wouldn't be nice to do to you, or because it would hurt someone else, or because, does that make sense? Then I'm making a choice. And so it's, this is what I mean by access to the, to the, to the feelings or access to the You know, making decisions. Because men are not good at that often. Men, women too, I suppose, because I work with the men. If you're in a relationship, a lot of guys struggle with that. Uh, I want to do this. This is important to me. She asks me for this. It's important to her. Do I give her what she wants, or do I take what I want? And the answer is not always, it's not always one and it's not always the other. You have to make a choice. What's more important right now? What's the appropriate action? And so it's learning to do that, learning to be willing to take chances and disappoint. I know that's not strictly just about aggression, but that's that whole thing of making good decisions for yourself and those around you. And being willing to do that and be wrong, that's hard for men.

Willow:

And getting in touch with that aggression, that, um, you know, testosterone and that more primal energy within gives them more access to making that choice in the

Damien:

Yeah, it

Leah:

Okay, so when you're, when you're doing the aggression like exercise, right? And, and the men have to like say something charged and, you know, not just you're, you're not a nice person, but you're a motherfucker. You know what I mean? I don't trust you. Like the, the, the, the hit you in the gut things. Um, I want to just understand if I have the value of that, right? So is it a, it's building, it seems like it's building two muscles. One is. Your, someone is throwing that energy at you and you're increasing your capacity to stay present to your own sensations. To, to be in the space, to modulate yourself. Is that right? Can you explain why it's valuable to go through that experience? Why men need to go through that? Or what the value is in it for them?

Damien:

So, there's a number of things when you're being, when you're serving, because in this space you're actually serving the other man by being aggressive, not just serving yourself. A lot of the exercises we do, it serves both parties.

Leah:

Yeah.

Damien:

But when you're asked, and the other man is always asked, how hard do you want the other man to be on you? And he says extremely, every time, almost every time. It's not about macho BS, it's, I want to, I want to, because it's part of the exercise. It's, I want to be able to stand present and be, I want this, right? And even though he's given, not just like, I'm telling him, the man himself is saying, I need this, I want this. Um, in a controlled environment, being able to go extreme to an extreme you wouldn't go with another human being, at least not appropriately. with another human being and how hard you go on them teaches you where the limit is, where your limit is, where their limit is, where the end point is. Because if you don't know that, you have no way to modulate what's 70%, what's 60%, what, where am I comfortable? What's this space like? What's it like to receive this? If we're completely uncomfortable with that space, we'll start to stay far, far away from it. And it's this fear of going there. That is the thing that holds us back. The other, I mean, nice guys are also nice because we don't let ourselves feel 10 percent aggression. 10 percent aggression is when someone does something that's not okay and we say, look, I'd rather you didn't do that. I really don't like that. That's 10 percent aggression. It's not being rude. It's not being a dick. It's just having a boundary, but they don't do that because that's 10 percent aggression and no aggression is good.

Leah:

Okay.

Damien:

so by being comfortable going to that extreme up and down, up and down, sensitive and extreme, sensitive and

Willow:

more access.

Damien:

And not closing, because if you close when you're aggressive, you have no awareness of the other person anymore. You have to remain open. If I'm being aggressive to this other man and hurting him, I have to feel what I'm doing to him. I have to feel it. It's a whole part of that process.

Leah:

That's what I thought was the other book cap. You know, I knew there was two bookmarks in there trying to figure out the range. Okay, really great. That's great.

Willow:

Yeah, so fun. My God, Damien, we could talk to you for hours. This

Damien:

That

Willow:

so fun. What a great conversation. I love the work that you're doing in the world. Um, what do you have coming up? Anything we should know about?

Damien:

Look, I always have a men's retreat, which is the men's work event running. I run that out in the mountains in Sydney. I've always got one of them running once a month. Got another one coming up in three weeks. Uh, you know, I've, if guys want to check me out, I

Leah:

from, um, from other countries that attend that, Damien?

Damien:

I do, I do get a couple. I'd love to get more. I'd love to run them. I do dating coaching other countries all the time. I head to Europe, I head to the States, but the men's work, I haven't run in other countries yet.

Leah:

Well, maybe we'll

Willow:

Canadians and Americans. Yeah,

Leah:

we should have you here and you can, you can run some here. I think there's a lot of, a big market

Damien:

In a heartbeat.

Willow:

so, yeah, that'd be great.

Leah:

Cool. Well, if you guys want Damien to come to the U. S., hit us up in the comments, let us know on our speakpipe, um, voicemail and, uh, we'll make sure we, we sponsor him out here

Damien:

I'm going to be there in a few months.

Willow:

Oh, there you go.

Leah:

Okay, we'll check out his website. Check out his podcast. I was recently interviewed on the show and you can check that out. Um, and any, uh, final thoughts, Damien? Any

Damien:

Yeah, look, I'd say my final thoughts would be this. Uh, start getting integrated into any type of men's work stuff. You know, uh, start reading, start getting involved in it. Um, there are so many guys who wanna support men around the world want to be connected, and they're not. And I don't know, we feel as men, like other men are, are alien to us and they don't want to connect with us. But actually every man that I've, I've ever talked to pretty much wants other men to be closer to them.

Leah:

Yeah, right on. Let's get this brotherhood strong. All right, you guys, check out the School of Attraction podcast and stay tuned because The Dish is up next.

Announcer:

Now, our favorite part, the dish.

Leah:

Well, it's good to be down, Undersister.

Willow:

Oh my god, it makes me want to go to the Gold Coast, it makes me want to run away to another country. I love

Leah:

on that course.

Willow:

Yeah, I know.

Leah:

I loved his pillars, like doing the mommy work and the daddy work and the inner child work and the subconscious work and the aggressive work and the shame

Willow:

Yes, so good. Feels like he's got it pretty dialed.

Leah:

Yeah, I actually really would like to sponsor him here. I'd love

Willow:

That'd be fun.

Leah:

Matt would really enjoy that. I mean,

Willow:

Well, a lot of our Tantra, a lot of our Tantra men would really do well with his work, I think. Yeah.

Leah:

Yeah, I wonder how it's different from Mankind. I wish I would have asked him if he's done Mankind, if that's been one of his trainings.

Willow:

Hmm, I don't know. I don't know exactly what they do in the Mankind Project. You probably know more than I do.

Leah:

I do. I know things I'm not supposed to know.

Willow:

Oh, do tell. In the dish. Shh, don't let anyone hear you. Ha ha

Leah:

never say, because I want the initiation to stay strong for the

Willow:

yes,

Leah:

But they do some things that are good, that are like, really edgy.

Willow:

It's cool that his journey started with David Data, you know, it's like so many, so many men really got started with his work, and I think, and women too, and I think it's, you know, his work is really, really a huge part of this whole movement of like, where are we at as males and females in this culture today? And, you know, the, the, what was it? The way of the, the way of superior

Leah:

Of the superior man, yep.

Willow:

I think that so many women that I talked to were all kind of like, hmm, there was a lot of good stuff and there was some stuff that like, was like, nah, I don't think

Leah:

I mean, I think my biggest complaint is you, you know, he talked about, not Damien, but David Dieda, talks about these three level man, level one man, level two man, level three man. And so, like, level one was like the 1950s kind of chauvinistic guy. Level two is like the hippy dippy, just wants to be a musician and sing all day. And then you have Number three was very integrated and balanced and, you know, the superior men. And, and what people would notice is like, there's just so many guys that are stuck in two

Willow:

Mm

Leah:

or they're in one and they try to jump to three. And, and so what I would notice is we had, there was this huge rush of all these men being interested in David's work, but then they were all trying to be David. Instead of themselves, like they weren't really doing the work to a degree that they were their best version of themselves. They were trying, they started to like try to look and sound like David Dieda.

Willow:

Within those three styles of men, there's like many, many more options, and that's what you're saying, like they weren't. So I actually think Damien's work is really cultivating that for men. Like really, what I heard him say over and over and over again is like, bringing them back to what's authentic and true and real for them. Getting them in touch with the aggression. Getting them in touch with their shame. Getting in touch with the things that they would That they have not had the opportunity to get in touch with and, um, and, more fully in more of their, um, in more of the masculine container. I feel like it's really, I was starting to get into this a little bit. I feel like it's really, um, stressful for men right now. Just like there's so much that they have to, that they feel responsible for holding up. I mean, think about like your average, like, you know, I don't know, your average guy who's, um, You know, let's say a sports dude and he's just a dude bra, right? And you're telling him, okay, well, you got to go up to that woman and you got to read her energy and you got to stay in touch with your own virility and your own masculinity, but don't be sleazy, but don't, you know, it's like, it's a tall order. And that's why curating and doing this work actually shifts your cellular body so that when you do approach a woman, it's more natural and it's coming from an authentic place.

Leah:

Yeah, like I really got what he's teaching men to do is, is to cultivate awareness. It's like to stay present means tracking your own system and not going away. Can you stay open?

Willow:

Yeah.

Leah:

Even when there's chaos around you. And then notice when do you hit capacity and you have to close. You don't have to judge it, but you have to notice it. You got to stay awake and aware and present enough to notice what opens you, what closes you, and then to practice expanding your capacity to be able to stay present, ultimately. And that, and that means also, like, be in your environment. Stay in your body, but be in your environment. And then, and then read people. Don't be so consumed with your own anxiety. That you're not aware of the other bodies. I mean, it's what energetic responsibility is really all about. And I liked his way of verbing it, you know, of, of verbalizing what he's asking them to do, um, you know, to like, to notice your object of desire and not let go the sensation of feel the desire ripple, but, but be in it, you don't got to do anything with it. And then notice as you're just in it. How is the response around you? People are going to respond differently because people have different sensitivities,

Willow:

and they are going through different things at

Leah:

Yeah. And then like the mastery is now play the volume, you know, like no one to turn it up, no one to turn it down. And that's, that's when it gets juicy and fun for me. It's like, that's, that's the game I want to play.

Willow:

I just want to say to all the men who are out there listening, like, don't get overwhelmed. I feel like if I was a man, I might feel like a little overwhelmed by this conversation. I think, you know, like, I would feel both, like, depending on where I'm at in my masculine journey as a man, you know, um, but I could see some, I'm thinking like of the dude bras who are like, well, that's a lot to handle, you know, like it could feel a little bit overwhelming, but it is just all, um, step by step and awakening places inside of you and then integrating that and it just, um, is a really beautiful process actually and you, you discover things about yourself that you never would otherwise.

Leah:

Right. Fun. All right! All right, everybody, toodaloo!

Announcer:

Thanks for tuning in. This episode was hosted by Tantric Sex Master Coach and Positive Psychology Facilitator, Leah Piper, as well as by Chinese and Functional Medicine Doctor and Taoist Sexology Teacher, Dr. Willow Brown. Don't forget, your comments, likes, subscribes and suggestions matter. Let's realize this new world together.

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Dr. Willow Brown

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Leah Piper

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Damien Diecke

Guest