The Sex Reimagined Podcast

Veronica Monet: From Sexual Abuse to Empowered Sex Worker - How IFS Therapy Changed Everything | #110

• Leah Piper, Dr. Willow Brown, Veronica Monet • Season 3 • Episode 110

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Imagine growing up in a trailer, part of a right-wing religious cult, experiencing ongoing sexual abuse from age 6 to 17. This was Veronica's reality. But her story doesn't end there. After escaping her abusive home, Veronica embarked on a remarkable journey of transformation. She turned to sex work not out of desperation, but as a conscious choice to reclaim her sexuality and heal her trauma. Her journey led her to discover Internal Family Systems (IFS) therapy, a powerful tool that allowed her to understand and integrate the different parts of herself shaped by her experiences.


EPISODE HIGHLIGHTS

  • The magic of Internal Family Systems (IFS) therapy: Meet your inner managers, firefighters, and exiles
  • Sex work: From stigma to empowerment
  • Breaking those pesky generational cycles
  • Veronica's victorious journey from abuse to advocacy
  • Why sex work can be a surprising path to healing (yes, really!)
  • Communication game-changers: "Perfect timeout" and "Show Me Your Movie"
  • The secret to forgiving the unforgivable


EPISODE LINKS *some links below may also be affiliate links 


THE VAGINAL ORGASM MASTERCLASS. Discover how to activate the female Gspot, clitoris, & cervical orgasms. Buy Now. Save 20% Coupon: PODCAST 20

LAST 10x LONGER. If you suffer from premature ejaculation, you are not alone, master 5 techniques to cure this stressful & embarrassing issue once and for all. Buy Now. Save 20% Coupon: PODCAST20.

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Leah:

Welcome to the show if you're a first time listener or welcome back if you are a returning listener. I'm Leah Piper, and this is Dr. Willow Brown, and we are your hosts of the Sex Reimagined podcast.

Willow:

Yes, we are. And we just interviewed Veronica Monet, who is an Internal Family Systems Relationship Coach. certified sexologist, anger specialist, and trained rape and domestic violence counselor. She brings a rich array of expertise to her coaching practice and so much more. She's been through so much of this herself and so she really has first hand knowledge of what it means to heal from these challenges.

Leah:

Yep, she's a retired sex worker and you'll hear all about her adventures and part of what it was like to grow up in a fundamentalist Christian household where she suffered a lot of abuse. She is a fascinating guest and sexpert. So please tune in, turn on, and fall in love with Veronica Monet.

Announcer:

Welcome to the Sex Reimagined Podcast, where sex is shame free and pleasure forward. Let's get into the show.

Leah:

Veronica, welcome to the show. So glad to have you.

Veronica:

I'm really excited to be here with both of you.

Willow:

Yeah. So let's dive in. Tell us, Veronica, we were both very intrigued about your work in the internal family systems, but we know that's not like the, you haven't been doing that the longest. Tell us where you started on your journey. Tell us your Genesis story of how you got

Veronica:

Well, my justice story is really controversial. You sure you want to go

Leah:

Yes. We love

Veronica:

Okay. Um, so I was born into a right wing religious cult. Very,

Willow:

Similar to Leah.

Leah:

Yeah.

Veronica:

homeschooled, sexually abused. Um, didn't know anything about the world. And then I left home and I went to college. Got a degree in psychology. Went and worked in corporate America for seven years. Got really disillusioned and pissed off. Um, because this was the 80s and there was a really harsh glass ceiling for women. And so then, I met this beautiful escort, who I also kind of fell in lust with. And she, um, much, she didn't want to do it, but I, I really pressured her to teach me how to be an escort. And I did that for the next 17 years.

Leah:

Wow.

Veronica:

I became very high profile. I was featured on CNN and Fox. I went on Bill Maher's Politically Incorrect. I was the first out prostitute on a comedy show and I was featured in the New York Times. So I've Seven you're supposed to get like 15 years of fame. I had 17 years.

Leah:

What was, I'm fascinated. What was like the, the big benefit of being on public and national television with that? And then what was the biggest, um, downside I suppose? Yeah. Mm hmm.

Veronica:

Yeah, okay First of all, the biggest benefit to being a sex worker was I actually got paid a lot of money I went bought a house You Um, was a primary breadwinner. I got married, so I made twice as much money as my husband. It was a huge game changer for me financially. Um, I also, being this little homeschooled girl who grew up in the country in a little trailer, got to hobnob with wealthy people and fly all around and stay in these amazing hotels and ride around in limos. And it was fairly glamorous and fun. And the television producers treated me the same way. I was treated like a star. All that stuff was really exciting and fun. The downside was law enforcement, because, obviously, not on the legal side of things, and I was fairly out as a sex worker rights activist. Uh, kind of on the ground floor with the rebirth of Coyote in the 90s, and also the, um, Uh, the birth of SWAP, Sex Worker Outreach Project here in the United States, working with Robin Few. So, um, law enforcement, however, was always on my butt.

Leah:

Really?

Veronica:

uh, that got tiring. And then, getting recognized in the streets. I remember one day in particular, I went to a hamburger joint with my family. And, um, you know, I had two young children and a husband and I, I knew that I was at that point where I was just starting to get recognized. So I wore a baseball cap and no makeup and thought, this will do it. Nobody will know. The waitress comes over to take our order and says, oh, oh, you're the lady on TV. And I was like, okay, I'd like a hamburger and a milkshake, please.

Leah:

Wow.

Veronica:

Children, what will you have? Then she goes back to the kitchen and next thing I know, all the wait staff is standing at the door pointing at me.

Willow:

Mm

Veronica:

And so I couldn't even have a private moment with my family. And I ended up moving to a cabin in the woods. And, um, my husband relapsed around prescription pills and we were both clean and sober and had been for over a decade. Um, and so I ended up filing for a divorce from him. And I, I live a very spiritually based life that's really hard for people to understand when I talk about all the money and everything. Um, but prayer and sobriety was a big cornerstone of my entire lives, um, since I got sober in 1985. So I brought sacred sexuality to my clients as an escort. And um, and then I just woke up one morning and told my then husband, I said, uh, I'm gonna write a book. And he goes, how do you know? And I go, well, I just know I have, I have to stop escorting and sell the house so I can write a book.

Leah:

Wow.

Veronica:

And he told me, you're crazy. You know, that doesn't mean you're going to get a book deal. And of course, this was one of those moments where I just had a download from the universe. And, um, the book deal arrived in my inbox. I didn't go chasing it. It just arrived in my inbox about four months later. I got an advance, signed with Penguin. I wrote my first book,

Leah:

And what was the name of that book?

Veronica:

Sex Secrets of Escorts.

Leah:

Cool. What a great title.

Veronica:

It has been, um, translated into four different languages. It's out of print here in the United States, but there's still a lot of people in the Czech Republic who are buying it,

Willow:

Oh,

Veronica:

for some reason.

Willow:

Interesting. Yeah.

Leah:

Wow.

Veronica:

I don't know what that means. But, um, and I'm working on my second book. Uh, I am not under contract with this one. It's my memoir, and it's really About trauma and how working with IFS parts helps that about my trauma, which is pretty expensive. Um, just really abusive childhood. So, um, yeah, one of the things I decided was, okay, oh no, I don't want, I don't wanna be on all those talk shows again. And so I made a deal with myself. I said, you don't have to, you could just go on the shows like this one, you know, I wanna do shows like this. Um, I don't want to be trotted out on Good Morning America or something like that. And, um, so I'm just kind of putting that out to the universe and saying only quality interviews.

Willow:

I love it. I love it. That's great. So, so how, how has your work with the internal family systems, the IFS, how has that really shifted, you know, your, I mean, that's kind of what's most highlighted and up for you at this point in time.

Veronica:

It is, it's such a paradigm shift. I, I'm so excited about IFS and I, you know, this is part of me, I can be like a true believer. If the whole world had IFS, we wouldn't have any more problems.

Willow:

kind of true. It is. Yeah. Yeah.

Veronica:

turn thing, you know, instead of thinking that my problems originate outside of myself, to realize that it has so It's everything to do with my past trauma and how I interpret events and how I see people through these filters. In a lot of ways, I don't even see the person in front of me because they're just kind of standing in for mom or dad or ex husband or something like that. And um, I think that, well, it's just, it shifts the paradigm. So like I have the degree in psychology. Psychology is really based on. Diagnosing people, and if I may, just for 60 seconds, I'm going to diagnose the field of psychology. One of the things that I don't like about my chosen field is the fact that it's so aspirational. It was having so much trouble being acknowledged as a genuine science when it was first birthed. So it went to a great deal of trouble to establish all kinds of hierarchies. And, you know, like when I was getting my psychology degree, it was just all about these dead white men. When were they born? What did they found? What, you know, what were they known for? Why are they so great? And I took all the required for a sociology degree. I liked it a lot better because that was about people and interpersonal dynamics and society. IFS to me is An opportunity for us to stop stigmatizing and labeling each other. And I've even been looking at the whole narcissist empath or narcissist codependent, uh, nexus. It's really popular right now and I see value in acquainting myself with the patterns of narcissism. But if you're going to say that, that somebody is this or is that you have failed to see all their parts. Because we're all very complex. And one of the things that I know from, say, let's just take domestic violence, because that's something I specialize in, and I have a background of both a survivor and a perpetrator. That's actually pretty common.

Willow:

Hmm.

Veronica:

A matter of fact, I mean, there was one survey that was done years ago. It was like 75 percent of the women admitted into, um, domestic, domestic violence shelters were hitting their children.

Leah:

Uh huh.

Veronica:

We don't like to think that way. Um, our society has been predicated on the idea of good and bad, black and white, either or us or them, these polarities. So having a nuanced view of each other, um, Is it something that we're real comfortable with? But I'm finding that's where personal power is.

Willow:

Yeah.

Veronica:

Personal power is really about acknowledging your dark side and, and, because too, in relationship dynamics, if one person stops being abusive, oftentimes the person who is getting abused will just switch roles.

Willow:

Right.

Veronica:

It's, It's amazing phenomena, but it really does support the idea that we have all those parts inside of us.

Willow:

hmm. Yeah, we're like these many faceted crystals that you could turn it one way. It looks completely different. You turn it another way and that really speaks to perception, right? And so what you're really speaking to is how we can shift our perception. of, of everything that we've been through and who we are today to shift the reality I think we

Leah:

have a deep desire to be seen. You know, we want to be understood, we want to be seen, and really the only way to achieve that is for us to attempt to see the whole person, and to see all these varying degrees of what closes them and what opens them, um, of, of how they love and how they hurt. And, And then to be with that, and that, I think, has to first start with our attempt to do that with ourselves, and then, of course, to extend that generosity to those that are in our life, who really matter, and hopefully even to those people who don't necessarily matter as much, but you have a brief encounter with them, and to be as much as possible Yeah, to see the totality of something versus just to only relate with these different parts of who we are. And you know, that's, it's not easily done.

Willow:

No, it

Veronica:

it's not easily done.

Leah:

Don't want to oversimplify it. That is not easily done.

Veronica:

It's not easily done. I pray every morning and every night. And, um, last night my prayer was kind of going in that direction. I am just so grateful to be helping my clients transform. I took, um, one of my clients into his very first IFS exercise. And he was so moved and so shocked by what he remembered and we got in touch with a, um, an exile that had been severely traumatized at age 8. And, you know, this man, he's 54 and he's got tears rolling down his cheeks. And I know that even though we were unpacking something that happened when he was 8, And it might seem completely unrelated to his marriage. I know that it's going to show up as some kind of a shift in his relationship. And that's just so exciting, and I can't even wait until the next time I see him to find out, oh, things got a little bit better at home. Imagine that.

Willow:

Well, I think that's really, that's really the magic of doing any kind of parts work, IFS or somato emotional release. Any of these different modalities that look at the many facets of each individual is, you know, we, we can unlock something, a pattern that has been so ingrained and stamped out through life, especially in those really close, intimate relationships and actually take that, that pattern that's been playing out. Over and over and over and over again and shift it in a in a session in a single session it can shift

Veronica:

I know, it's, it is, so I got sober in 1985 and was immediately in therapy. I've been in all kinds of, but almost all of it's cognitive behavioral therapy, CBT. And, you know, so you sit across from a therapist, you meet with them every week, and you talk about your, your issues. And, um, Year after year after year. And gradually, you know, gradually you feel some shifts and some stuff opening up a little bit and things are getting a little bit better. Maybe you take some workshops or read a self help book and learn how to manage your anger or work with codependency. And I've been through just about every 12 step program known to man. Um, and woman. But, but it wasn't until I started doing IFS personally in my own personal life seven years ago that I went, oh, oh, this is really shifting things dramatically, like overnight. And, um, and that's one of the reasons I was so excited about it. I think, you know, I don't know how familiar your viewers are with IFS, so I would love to just explain a little bit about

Willow:

Please do yeah, we haven't had anyone speak to this yet. So give us the give us the lay it out for us lay it

Veronica:

Lay it out! Okay, so,

Leah:

is internal family systems?

Veronica:

the quick short answer, uh, and I don't know, Leah, maybe you're the one that should be answering this question because I don't think you're completely, um, I think you probably know a lot about this,

Leah:

I'm not a novice, but I wouldn't call myself an expert either.

Veronica:

okay, well, feel free to fill in any gaps you think I have left. As I understand IFS and as I work it, basically we have sub personalities. I often tell my clients, imagine it's your microbiome on a spiritual, emotional level. So, human beings are a very unique creature in that we have less DNA than a banana. Our DNA is primarily microbiome, which means we are a community. The microbiome lives around our heart, in our brain, down in our gut, under our skin, in our eyeballs, it's everywhere. We don't actually exist unless we are composed of bacteria. So, we are not self sufficient and we're not a solitary unit. We're a community. Similarly, inside of us, wherever you place that, and everybody kind of has a different experience, sometimes they fill their parts in their gut, they fill it in their heart, they fill it in their head, they fill it over here, up there, around them. But, there is a constellation of sub personalities, and they've been classified. I don't always find it easy to know exactly what classification they fit into. But you can tell that they're different from each other because they have different agendas and different ways of operating. So, essentially we break them down into firefighters. Firefighters are the ones who rush in to put the fire out and they don't care if they break windows and bust the door down and spray water all over the furniture and ruin it. As long as the house doesn't burn down. Because our firefighters do similar things. They do some pretty bad things sometimes. Things that are really disturbing. But they have great intentions. They're trying to

Leah:

they're there to save lives, but that doesn't mean they're there, they're there to save lives. That doesn't mean they're there to restore the home or to keep the investment or all the other things. Yes, yes.

Veronica:

And then you've got the, um, the managers. And the managers tend to be a little more cerebral. They plan things out. Like, you know, Well, you know, we've got to pay the bills on time, we've got to get to work, we've got to take care of the kids, we've got to, whatever, whatever. They just, they do a lot of plans and a lot of lists, and I'm always fascinated when a manager starts, I just found a firefighter that the client's really uncomfortable with because they don't like what the firefighter's doing. And in comes this manager, To explain them away. And I'll say, Hi, I'm really glad you're here. I think you have some good points. But would you mind giving us a little space? Because I want to keep talking to this firefighter. And they usually do relax. The thing about, well, just one more thing. The firefighters and the managers tend to be occluding, protecting, uh, exiles. Exiles tend to be the wounded parts. A lot of them originate in childhood. Um, some of them don't. I mean, like, rape survivors may have exiles from adulthood. Domestic violence survivors have exiles from adulthood. But locating those exiles is, you have to kind of work through the managers and the firefighters to get to them. And they're usually just, um, kind of off by themselves, still hurting, still stuck in the past. Really, really needing your love, needing you to show up for them, and to acknowledge that they exist, and that's what I did yesterday with this client. He found his little 8 year old boy and loved him up, and it was really moving.

Willow:

Mm

Leah:

Yeah, if I can just add just one thing to that and it's like imagine if there was a part of you that got kicked out of your house and kicked out of the country is now lost in somewhere like Siberia or Well, it could be in the south of France lucky exile Or it could be in the Sahara Desert. It's like where where am I? You've lost a part of yourself There's a part of yourself that's holding Fear and shame and guilt and pain and this holding the story is sacrificed itself so that you can keep going and so to be able to see the exiled that means it's like reclaiming a part of yourself that actually makes you more whole once you go I found you sweet one and look at all that you've done for me you've been holding this pain and keeping it at a distance with the help of my firefighters and my managers and I am here We're okay. Look how old I am now. Everything's going to be all right. Come back home. I gotcha. And with the help of your IFS therapist, you start to realize how actually capable you are of holding all these parts of yourself and Re, um, and basically just metabolizing. It feels like to me, like the whole system is really about, let me just metabolize the things that were painful and bring myself back. It's like uncovering the parts that get lost. It's not that they're disconnected. I don't even know that they're lost. It's really, they've been covered up. And so you're just sort of taking off the covers and bringing them close to your heart and then you can wrap the covers back around so everyone is cozy. That's kind of what it feels like, the liberation of, ah, we're free, but we're together. Can

Veronica:

because you can't accomplish that unless you're able to embody self. So I, I tell my clients. My role is to pull back the firefighters, the managers, refine the exile, so that you can actually manifest self. And self has got these eight characteristics. Um, some of my favorite of them are the confidence, The clarity, compassion, curiosity. If you can bring that, especially the compassion and the curiosity, the parts really need that. They need to feel like you're validating them, you see them, you're accepting them, you love them, you get them, and you want to know more about them. And these curiosity and compassion, These are the two greatest things you can bring to a conversation with another human

Willow:

Mm-Hmm.

Veronica:

So as you learn to navigate your internal family with that curiosity and compassion, it's also going to cause you to be that way with other people. You're going to be able to extend that to other people and your relationships are going to work a lot better. But people usually start off by polarizing. They've got sometimes polarized parts that have different agendas. One's trying to accomplish one thing, the other one's trying to accomplish another thing. They sometimes fight and don't like each other.

Leah:

you give an example of that, like a real world example of that?

Veronica:

Yes, I can. Let's talk about overeating. I always like bringing this to like tangibles so people can realize it's

Leah:

Oh, you, you're naming me like there's no tomorrow today.

Veronica:

oh, okay.

Leah:

journey.

Veronica:

Yeah, I go in the other direction. I have an eating disorder towards anorexia. Um, so, but most of my clients have more of the, the over eating thing. And it tends to be that you've got one part, work on on a diet. That's it. I've had it. We're going on a diet. And it has a great plan, it's all set out, and it's going to enforce it.

Willow:

that like the manager?

Veronica:

others.

Willow:

Would that be like, would that be like the manager stepping in?

Veronica:

Pretty much, yeah.

Leah:

Yeah.

Veronica:

Yeah, yeah. I would say that's a manager. And then, there's this other part that is saying, Nah, I, uh, I

Leah:

I worked so hard today. I deserve a treat.

Veronica:

third step. But there's, for some survivors of abuse, it can be more like, I like having the extra pounds on because I feel safer.

Willow:

Yeah. Protection.

Veronica:

And so, and that is often times so buried, so not acknowledged, because, um, the manager is so busy saying we'll feel better, we'll be healthier, uh, we'll get more dates, blah, blah, blah, whatever, whatever it's agenda is. And this other part is sometimes just almost invisible. to a client. They just can't see that actually there's a part of them that doesn't want that. And that's where we want to go. We want to go find out what it's protecting and why it wants to keep the weight on. And, and then, you know, when you find that part and you feel so much compassion for it and you realize how it's trying to keep you safe,

Leah:

Mm

Veronica:

um, that's what it needs. It needs that compassion and to be seen and then maybe start seeing how you can get its need for safety met

Willow:

Mm hmm.

Veronica:

without using that particular strategy.

Leah:

Mm hmm.

Veronica:

So what I like to do is I like to ask those parts if they would be willing to work with the client's self.

Willow:

Mm.

Veronica:

And I always acknowledge the self has not really been there for them in the past. And That who they think this person is, who has let them down over and over again is probably a polarized part that's been working against their agenda.

Leah:

Uh huh.

Veronica:

And so, would they be willing to relax just a little bit so that the self could start to learn how to manifest, how to come forward, so we could start to get all the parts to relax. Because what I tell my clients is, I don't have your answers. I'm not here to tell you what your solutions are. You already have them. All we're trying to do is get to yourself. And yourself is this beautiful, wise, ancient part of you that actually intuitively knows how to handle things the rest of you doesn't.

Willow:

Mm hmm, yeah,

Veronica:

Yeah. And that's, that for me is a really spiritual component of IFS.

Leah:

Yeah. Uh huh.

Veronica:

That, that I just love because it actually resonates with my 12 step recovery. Because we have a, a saying, it's actually in the Promises of A. A. which says, uh, we will intuitively, intuitively know how to handle things that is to baffle us. And I find that that's what self manifests. It manifests this ancient divine wisdom that's just there and has been there the whole time. But it was covered up with so much fear, and resentment,

Willow:

And yeah, self doubt and lack of worth and uncertainty and all the pieces. Um, you know, this, this self that you're speaking to, um, is yes, always there. And we need to uncover the layers in order for it to shine more brightly. And so it's, it's a simultaneous thing. That's what I'm hearing, is what you're doing is you're simultaneously pulling the self more forward, giving it more space and more light to shine as you're unthreading these old patterns of protection and these ways of keeping yourself safe, um, that relate to, you know, how you grew up in the world, your family, and also the society at large is a part of it as well, correct?

Veronica:

Yes, and you know what's great about this particular therapeutic modality is there's two things, and I work with the really big gnarly stuff like domestic violence, sexual assault, um, anger, sex. These are two areas that are really

Leah:

Big primal stuff. Yeah.

Veronica:

Yeah, and I don't work with people who've been diagnosed with, you know, things like schizophrenia or, um, other major, um, Mental illnesses. But, it's my understanding that IFS has a certain amount of success even in those areas. Perhaps not for all people. Some people have genuine chemical imbalances. But a lot of it is polarized parts acting out. And, um, Lisa Rankin and Dick Schwartz did a workshop that I took last year about parts as health issues.

Leah:

Uh

Willow:

Right,

Veronica:

the body can manifest, um, autoimmune disorders and headaches and pain and, um, and, you know, she doesn't want to Lisa Rankin is an MD, she's a doctor. She doesn't want to take that too far and say that, you know, there aren't genuine illnesses that aren't caused from our inner, uh, family here. But she also thinks that Our trauma and our anxiety and these polarized parts can exacerbate it. So just getting curious about the headache, like maybe I have a headache because, you know, I'm dehydrated or something. But also maybe I have a headache because there's a part of me that's trying to talk to me right now and I'm ignoring it. And it's trying to get my attention.

Leah:

Yeah.

Veronica:

So not putting labels on each other to like, oh, well you have a mental disorder, or you're a narcissist, but rather like that's a, that's a narcissistic part or that's an obsessive compulsive of part. I wonder what, how it's trying to help you and, um.

Willow:

There's that

Veronica:

getting a little more curious about some of our health issues like well, maybe, maybe I could do both. I could go see a doctor and find out what's wrong with me and I could also work on the emotional component

Leah:

Yeah, I think it's a more holistic way of looking at healing is, and that also includes what's going on with our body. I think people can be very dismissive, dismissive of that, or just haven't even thought of it because the medical industry hasn't thought of it. That the way to better health, even when you're dealing with an illness of the body, is to consider lots of different angles. One being the treatment that your doctor can provide you, but also what the emotional treatment might be that coincides with. This ongoing health issue. Yeah. I think the other thing that's really interesting that you were speaking to is that when it comes to these managers and firefighters, The acknowledgement that they're not the enemy, neither is the exile. It's like, sometimes I think you're screwing up my life. You're getting in the way. You know, that, that part that keeps on compelling the overeater to binge in order to escape the overwhelming feeling that's flooding their system. It's like, why do I keep on doing this? I say, I'm going to follow through on this diet and I fucked it up again. And here I am, you know, we have a tendency to want to. Eight, the part that drives whatever the compulsive behavior is that we are judging and we become our own enemy. And we just can't quite understand why this thing addiction is such a beautiful example of this. It's like, why do I keep on doing this thing?

Willow:

That I know doesn't serve me.

Leah:

yeah, there's so much self hatred there. And so what IFS I think is so good at is it's helping us actually go, can we become more compassionate, curious, bring a loving touch to the inquiry of this part, because it's actually serving us. It's not trying to hurt us. It's not the enemy. And, and you were, you touched on this a moment ago where it's, let's give it a different job. It's, it's still a vital part of our system. It's been actually supporting you your, for this whole time. Now it just needs to be redirected.

Willow:

Yeah, how can you, how can you create a new relationship with it? How can you get closer to it, become friends with it, and actually watch it transform before your very eyes? You don't even have to come up with another role for it. If you just listen to it and talk to it, it will come up with a role itself, a new way of being. Managing or calling in another part of you. A lot of times I do slightly different parts where it's about emotional release, but calling in like some other part of you, like either a part of your physical body or an entity that you're connected to, a goddess or an angel or a totem animal or whatever it is.

Leah:

can you say a little bit about the process of, of, um, reassigning, redirecting, helping, um, uh, Bring the attention to the firefighter or to the manager who so, who so wants you to be okay. Ultimately, you know, how, how both the self energy and those other manager roles, how they negotiate having a different job.

Veronica:

Well, one of the things that I have to do is, is Talk to my polarized parts that don't like the part that I'm going to go towards.

Leah:

Mm hmm.

Veronica:

And I thought what you were talking about just now about, um, you know, that I hate this part of me. That's an excellent example of a polarized part. So as soon as I have an agenda or an opinion about, you know, a judgment about a part of me, I'm blended with another part.

Leah:

Right. Right.

Veronica:

self is compassionate and curious, that's just what it is. I don't have to try to learn how to become compassionate and curious. What I have to do is I have to work with the parts that aren't.

Leah:

Yes.

Veronica:

The parts that are reactive, judgmental, condemning, controlling, rigid. I have to work with them. And so each time I find one of those parts that's fearful, judgmental, controlling, I bring self to it. And so it's kind of like you going in and you know, you think, well, I'd really like to talk to this particular firefighter. Maybe it's the one that's. It's causing me, in my case, not to eat, you know, um, okay, I want to get to know it and find out why it would rather be an adrenaline junkie. Um, so, but, but to get to it, I first have to talk to the part that's like, you know, I'm really getting annoyed at that, what are you going to stop doing that? You know it's not healthy, your hair is falling out. Um, you know, so, um, that's that's the process. It's really kind of like, oh, hi. Oh, hi. On your way to go talk to the one part you're going to encounter others. And I just, I turn to them and I'm just like, hi. So, what are you about?

Willow:

Yeah. What are

Veronica:

What's your deal?

Willow:

Yeah.

Leah:

right. And sometimes they're there just to distract you. And, and what I love about that is when that arises, it's just like, you're really important, thanks for being here. Would you mind waiting in the waiting room? Because we're still trying to get in touch with this part. You can watch, but if you wouldn't

Veronica:

Exactly. So I'm

Leah:

check in with you later.

Veronica:

I'm upbeat. I'm happy. I'm happy to meet you. Hey, hi. Hi there. Yeah. And a lot of times I validate because, you know, I just go, Oh, I see what you're trying to do. Yeah, I get that. That's, that's, I, that makes total sense to me. Wondering, would you mind waiting on that? You know, I can come back to you and, and talk to you about that some more. But I'm, right now I'm just wanting to talk to this one part. But I really, I really appreciate you.

Leah:

Yeah.

Veronica:

I'd never know, Leah, if that is possible. Self, or if that's a self like manager.

Leah:

Uh huh.

Veronica:

This is the part that I'm still a little confused with, and my therapist sometimes will call that out, but then I turn to her, I see her bringing her self like managers to me, and my part, and I'm like, I don't know,

Willow:

really matter, right? Maybe it doesn't need to be labeled. Yeah. Maybe it's all in the name of becoming more whole and healing

Veronica:

If it works, it works.

Leah:

Yes. Right. And if it's stuck,

Veronica:

parts relax and allow me to get in there and talk to that, that firefighter and eventually hopefully get back to the exiles that it's protecting, then if I'm using a self identified manager and they're doing a great job, works for me.

Willow:

Yeah. So.

Leah:

example where I was in a therapy appointment and, um, this has been common where I will get really sleepy. And like literally I could lay down right then close my eyes and I'd be out and under normal circumstances that wouldn't happen in life but for some reason I can be in a therapy appointment and boom I could sleep like that if given the option. And when I started to look at it from the parts perspective, what it felt like was a white cloud. It was like a curtain would drop, and it was very cloud like, and it was like, I, it would be so foggy, like literally I could not see. And the significance of that, when taking a look at, here I am, I'm investing money to go to therapy to uncover something that really is, is messing me up. And frankly, I'm scared enough because I don't want it to mess up my future, so I'm here. Spending good money and good time to get to the bottom of this crap. And now I've got this part that literally is dropping a curtain. So I can't get to the bottom of it. And one of the most helpful things I got once when working with managers like that was to go, well, this is interesting. Thanks. Thanks for giving me a chance to maybe get drowsy. It kind of feels good to get sleepy and naps are wonderful. And, um, can you. It feels like you're taking over a little bit and I'd like to breathe a little bit of space between me and you right now because I'm really curious about what's underneath the curtain. What are you afraid I'm going to see?

Veronica:

yeah,

Leah:

can you, can we work together with this? And then that would move and then suddenly I wasn't sleeping anymore. And then another layer would pop up and I would say, how old do you think I am?

Veronica:

uh huh,

Leah:

I love that one because they never know how old I am. They think I'm still 12 or 5 or 11, you know, and usually the age that they think I am correlates to a, um, a defining moment in some sort of trauma experience. In my case, there was a lot of sexual abuse. So it was like there was a moment in time where it was an inflection point. And that's oftentimes a place where they're like, look, that's a painful memory. We, we don't want you to go there. And you don't really want to go there. And we're here to protect you from there. And then to go, thank you. Thanks for protecting me all these years. And so, you know, I'm 40 now. And let me give you a review of my life. Look how far I've come from that age. Zoom. And then they oftentimes, again, then they move out and they let you see more and more and more. And those are just a couple examples of some of the more profound experiences of working with these parts and kind of the questions to ask. And so I'm really curious from your experience. experience, having also had sexual abuse, Veronica, and having such an abusive childhood. How does your work with IFS really help people who are suffering from sexual issues?

Veronica:

Yes. Okay. First of all, I just want to, want to say that there, what you are just talking about there is called updating the parts. So we're, we're updating the parts like, Oh, I'm actually a lot older than you think I am. And I've, you know, gotten therapy and training and, and look at some of the things I've done since, since you and I last talked.

Leah:

Right,

Veronica:

They're like, Oh,

Leah:

Oh!

Veronica:

well maybe you can handle it. I still don't trust you, but okay, I'll just, I'll, I'll

Leah:

I'll observe now. Yeah.

Veronica:

give a little space. Um, so I, I too was sexually abused as a child and, um, ongoingly from age 6 to 17 when I finally used violence to get my father to stop touching me.

Willow:

Mm

Veronica:

Uh, which was really great, it was effective. That part, however, took away, Oh, violence will fix everything.

Leah:

Ah.

Veronica:

then I end up having to work with that part and go, No, it fixed that, but that's not the solution for everything.

Leah:

Yeah.

Veronica:

Yeah. Um, it's,

Leah:

Well, that's actually a really great example right there, right? Because it's, it really illustrates that we can have a part that actually did a really good job at one point in our life. It saved our life at one point. It got us out of something that was harming us. It took courage, it took bravery, it was, it was the impetus that really could stop something in your case. And then, and then we take it and then it turns into a part, it turns into problematic and something else now that we need to go seek more self energy to try to

Veronica:

Well, um, let's talk about the, the cloud that you were talking about. But as a sexual abuse survivor, I'm really familiar with that cloud. Um, I probably characterize it as a fog, but it's sleepiness, just suddenly getting sleepy. My mother was an incest survivor as well. And our family was, um, in very closed circumstances, so the four of us would be in the living room watching something on TV. My mother would be sitting next to me. My dad would be in the recliner and often times he would have invited my younger sister to sit on his lap where he proceeded to molest her.

Willow:

mm

Leah:

hmm.

Veronica:

Right in front of my mother and I. My mother's coping mechanism, which I'm sure originated from her own abusive sexual past, was, um, she passed out.

Leah:

Ah,

Willow:

go to

Veronica:

She would literally fall asleep every time and then I would be sitting there watching my father fondle my sister. While he's winking at me. It was just horrific. I hated it while my mother's passed out and I was wide awake and Wanted to die. I just why am I here? This this is I feel like I'm in an insane asylum So no offense to mental institutions, but they used to be pretty horrific. My aunt was in one at one time bars on the windows. It's just horrible. So, um You

Willow:

um,

Veronica:

My coping mechanism at the time was to go inside and doubt my own sense of reality because Every time I would try to talk about what I was seeing with my own eyes my mother told me that the devil was talking to me and my dad told me that I was imagining things and Crazy,

Leah:

Wow.

Veronica:

and then my sister Sometimes acknowledged it, and other times would say, I don't know what you're talking about. So I never knew what I was going to get with her. They, all of them had their, their parts working overtime to protect them from what is a legacy burden in our family because the incest goes back generations.

Leah:

Right.

Veronica:

It goes back generations on both sides of the

Willow:

So, you're really breaking some serious epigenetic patterns at this point in time. You

Veronica:

Absolutely. Absolutely.

Willow:

any children?

Veronica:

Uh, I raised stepchildren.

Willow:

Okay, okay.

Veronica:

Fortunately, I was in therapy for years. I wouldn't get near children, um, until I had had years and years of

Willow:

You knew better, yeah.

Leah:

Yeah.

Veronica:

uh, so, no, that, I've, I didn't pass that on, for which I'm very grateful.

Leah:

So then through the IFS work, or maybe other therapeutic processes, you were able to identify, like, here you're growing up. Yeah. And, and being gaslit to such a degree to go, I'm, I'm going crazy. Am I crazy? You know, the literal thing of like, this stuff's

Willow:

child, where you don't have any other input, you don't have any other guidance, so

Veronica:

oh, thank you. Thank you, Willow, because I was raised in a cult, so I, and homeschooled, so I really had no other inputs. One of the things that I noticed in adulthood is that I can start to pass out or fall asleep. And, um, I, one of the things that'll make me sleepy is when I'm dealing with a client's denial.

Leah:

Oh, interesting.

Veronica:

I've taken this, this, um, legacy burden from my mother of passing out and I've kind of transposed it on the denial that was endemic to our family.

Leah:

Wow.

Veronica:

And, um, so I'm going to tell you a little secret and show it to you. See this little ball here?

Leah:

Okay.

Veronica:

I start squeezing it when I start to feel sleepy when I'm dealing with a client who is

Willow:

denial.

Veronica:

is completely denying reality, because I will start to get sleepy and I'm like, uh oh. There, but now, now I have befriended this part and I'm like, okay, I gotcha. They're in denial and we don't like that.

Leah:

Yeah,

Veronica:

noted. And now I'm going to squeeze this ball and wake up.

Leah:

That's genius. I love that, Veronica, because of course, like, we have these parts that get triggered with other people's parts. I mean, it's enough that we got parts that are polarized to each other inside

Willow:

Inside of

Leah:

we also have parts that are in relationship to other people's parts.

Veronica:

Exactly.

Willow:

Yeah. Yeah, and I imagine with, with the clientele that you're working with, there is a lot of resistance. There's a lot of denial. There's, I mean, who wants to go in and actually look at, you know, these old patterns and ways of protecting that are so painful, you know, because

Veronica:

it's, yeah, it's big, big emotions that I'm working with. Yeah.

Leah:

You know, back to the sex work piece, because, um, I'm, in my experience, uh, being in the sex worker field and industry, what I see a lot is it tends to attract a lot of people with sexual trauma.

Veronica:

Uh

Leah:

Who are like, it's like a deeper part of themselves is seeking healing. And so a lot of the sex workers or the people in the sex industry that I know, they, they come to the work to heal parts of themselves. And they start to make this connection between sex and healing and sex and the sacred and sex and transcendence. And then also just the nature of being sex positive. Even though so much of their beginnings were seeped in sex negativity, with guilt, fear, shame, um, purity culture, all religious significance. And I'm wondering, when you were a sex worker,

Veronica:

Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. Before you, before you ask that question, I just got to say, bravo. You just summed up the whole thing.

Leah:

Right. Yeah.

Veronica:

There are more children of conservative Christians in the sex industry than anything.

Leah:

So true.

Veronica:

And it's like a reaction to that oppression, that denial, and oftentimes getting sexually abused at home or at church. And I know for me. When I went into the sex industry, I had been in therapy for years, I'd been sober for years, and I felt like going into the sex industry was finally my lab work, if you will. It was an opportunity to build confidence and to heal parts of myself that the therapy, talk therapy, just wasn't going to do. And I did. And,

Leah:

like a reclamation of something very vital around our sexuality that that says I'm going to determine what my sexuality is and who I get to be and I'm done with other people projecting that on me and it takes a lot of courage to do that and it also happens like in different stages along the way because I think before I got into the whole sexuality business My assumptions were that people who were doing sex work were damaged, or had been awfully abused, were addicted to drugs. You know, they were in such despair that this was the only thing they could see to get themselves out of it. So there, I don't know if there's listeners who finally make their way to Sex Reimagined who still think like that, but the truth is quite opposite. There's so many people who are in the sex space. who are actually coming from a more healed space than most people could imagine when it comes to sexuality. And if they're not there yet, it's usually the thing that drives them there. It's like their soul's deepest desire is to uncover that they know there's something more. They know there's something deeper and somehow the path keeps on moving them in this direction. And, and I wish there were more voices for that.

Veronica:

well, and your voice is really important. Thank you. Thank you for putting that out there. Um, I've been putting it out there for a quarter of a century. And we need, we need, yeah, more voices, younger voices.

Leah:

when you when you had that whole Television opportunity. I can only imagine, like, here's where the, here's where I go, like, where there's so many people who are interviewing you, who were, like, assumed a certain story from you that, that this, that you weren't doing this of your own free will. Somehow you were being coerced and manipulated into being an escort and all the ramifications of that.

Veronica:

always. And then, and then if I proved that that wasn't the case, I might be like literally debating the, the president of the Los Angeles, as Los Angeles chapter of NOW one time on Geraldo, she was, and she goes, well, she's an exception, but it's not true for the rest of them.

Leah:

right, right, And how many prostitutes have you spoken

Willow:

Yeah, it's

Veronica:

Another time I was, um, I was a keynote at Kent State University, and there was a whole lineup of speakers that, um, that week, and we had, um, a feminist that was also going to be debating, she went to the person who was putting on the keynotes and said, You cannot allow this woman to speak. She's a working prostitute. And sex workers should not be allowed to speak for themselves unless they've been out of the business for five years.

Willow:

What?

Leah:

was a feminist?

Veronica:

Yes.

Leah:

Wow.

Willow:

Well, that was a different, that was a different time. That was in the 80s, or was that

Veronica:

Well, it wasn't really that different though.

Leah:

Yeah.

Veronica:

I'm not entirely sure. See, what's happened since then, and we've got the World Health Organization and Amnesty International and the Democratic Socialist Party all embracing decriminalization. But they do that on the premise of harm reduction. So they know that if they want to fight sex trafficking and they want to fight the spread of HIV, Uh, and other STIs. That enrolling the help of working sex workers is where it's at. Brazil proved that years ago. Um, and decriminalization is working in New Zealand. So, for that reason they embrace it. But do they actually think that it's an uplifting profession that some people choose and, and, and really benefit from? I would not say

Willow:

No, that. hasn't

Veronica:

The harm reduction model is what got us lift on that.

Leah:

Hmm.

Veronica:

And so we're actually quite a ways away from being able to acknowledge the truth of happy sex workers.

Leah:

Mm hmm. Yeah. That are doing honest good work and have been since the beginning

Willow:

And

Veronica:

And who are bringing sexual healing to their clients.

Willow:

bringing the deepest level of healing possible to their clients. Really powerful stuff.

Leah:

so many people are touch starved, and um, and we shrivel and die without touch, and we need it. We just, bottom line, we need to be soul to soul with people, and uh, it's one of the things that um, good sex workers know how to do.

Willow:

Veronica, I can't wait to read this memoir that you're working on. So tell us a little bit about where you're at in your journey in writing that.

Veronica:

I wrote of the first draft last year and then this year I am rewriting it, uh, with the help of my, uh, partner. I'm in a poly relationship have been for 14 years. And he's a best selling author who was nominated for a Pulitzer Prize. So

Willow:

Cool. So he's helping. That's

Veronica:

so excited to be able to tap his big brain as my editor. Um, and my hope is that, um, my intention, actually it's bigger than a hope, is to actually, um, arrange to have a TED Talk to launch the, um, Probably be a TEDx talk to launch the memoir. I was thinking about that on my yoga mat this morning. I was kind of like, okay, what, what, what's the premise of the TED talk? Because the memoir really chronicles a lot of stuff, obviously, which makes it kind of exciting. But what's perhaps going to be a little disappointing to some of my readers is that it stops at age 25, which is when I get sober. It doesn't go into the years as a sober married, escort.

Willow:

mm Well that might be round two. Yeah. Version

Veronica:

be part two. This first one is really just what it's like to grow up in a trailer, uh, with a working class family that's pretty low income in, um, a very right wing Christian cult, um, with all the oppressions and the denials and the traumas and the abuse and the sexual abuse and what it was like to climb out of that. How I, I went, turned towards drugs and alcohol, and um, came very close to dying, and then got sober. And that whole journey has a lot of trauma in it, but the way that I'm constructing this story is through the lens that I look at it now, which is very much about parts. So, my father's the big perpetrator in this book, um, and then I also, uh, highlight some of my own perpetrations as well. I really, really think that the TED talk is going to be about highlighting the fact that my father had these polarized parts that didn't even know about each other. Um, when he said I was crazy and imagining things, um, I was talking to a part of him that actually believed that.

Leah:

Yeah, I'm

Veronica:

And that part could not accept what the other part of him was doing

Willow:

right?

Leah:

sure. I mean, that makes sense.

Veronica:

And I was, the last words, you know, my father disowned me when I was 19 and he wouldn't talk to me ever again. Um, but he talked to me for 12 minutes on his deathbed over the phone and I said, Daddy, I love you. And he started to cry and he says, I know you do. He said, I love you too.

Leah:

Hmm.

Veronica:

And I just, that's the story I want to tell. I want, I really want to break people's hearts with the enormity of these abuses and then open their hearts to the love

Willow:

That transcends it

Veronica:

each other even in the face of that.

Leah:

That's a beautiful place to, you know, end this interview and Veronica, I love that to leave it on this message of, and love prevails and forgiveness is possible. And, um, seeing each other again, like your dedication to seeing more of who your father really is, encompassing all of that. You really demonstrate that well with that story. Um, I believe you have the exquisite partnership formula guide as your free gift to the

Veronica:

Do I do let me just explain real briefly what that is. It's 10, 000 words long. It's full color. It's gorgeous It cost me an arm and a leg to put it together and it's absolutely yours for free And and it contains Several of the key things that I teach my couples And I, I like them to read these and study these before they actually start working with me. One of them is the perfect timeout. People think they know how to take timeouts, but they're constantly causing a lack of trust in the relationship because of how they do it. So I've laid it out specifically exactly what you do. So that you've got a successful time out that's going to be honored by your partner and that is going to help you go work with your own parts, get yourself calmed down,

Leah:

productive.

Veronica:

find it, do the new turn and find out what you're, what you're triggered about and then you can come back and, and rejoin the conversation. I also include a game that my partner and I play all the time. We invented it. Um, he's also got a background in psychology. And, uh, it's called Show Me Your Movie.

Willow:

Mmm.

Veronica:

And it's exactly what it sounds like. Basically, you can use a talking stick and a timer if you like. But you agree that one person's going to tell you their movie. And from their perspective, this is what you did and said, and this is what they did and said, and this is how it

Willow:

Ah, I like that. Yeah.

Veronica:

And then you, you, you're going to do active listening and play that back until they feel heard. Then you're going to switch roles. You get to tell them your movie.

Willow:

It's a great way to own your own perspective.

Leah:

Yeah.

Veronica:

And what we have found over the years of playing this game as a couple is that we End up having a bigger movie

Leah:

Right.

Willow:

Nice.

Veronica:

So now I got his movie, my movie. We fit the pieces together and we're like, Oh, so that's what happened.

Leah:

Right.

Veronica:

And then we feel more partnered and we feel more empathy and compassion for each other. And, um,

Willow:

practice.

Leah:

yeah,

Veronica:

and then there's also the exquisite partnership from this, so

Willow:

It's all in there. All in this one guide. Amazing.

Veronica:

step process for a firm no in a romantic sexual situation. It is something that I birthed as an escort. How to navigate those boundaries in a way that's juicy and seductive and loving and heart expanding. And, um, The reason that I share this with people who aren't sex workers is because I've encountered so many women identified people in relationships with a male identified person who tend to acquiesce and be silent about what's really working for them and not working for

Willow:

Oh, yeah, that's a common

Leah:

a common one.

Veronica:

Yeah.

Leah:

Well, great. I'm looking forward to downloading that free gift myself. So thank you,

Willow:

thank you, Veronica. So fun to

Veronica:

really fun hanging out with both of

Willow:

Yeah, we'll have to have you back on the show.

Leah:

So with that, thank you so much for being here. Please stay tuned where Dr. Willow and myself are going to dish it up. Love, love, love, love.

Announcer:

Now, our favorite part, the dish.

Leah:

so it's time to dish it up with Veronica. Well, that was kind of interesting to go into the IFS world. You know, sometimes IFS is challenging to explain, so I hope the audience was able to make sense of that. It's, it's a lot easier once you kind of go through and are walked through an experience.

Willow:

Yeah. the concept, it's the concept basically that you've got all these different sort of family personas inside of your person and each one of these different personas that has different roles to play and that's why you choose things that you choose in your life. So in a nutshell that's what it is. It's called Tantra. Just parts work, working with different parts of yourself. I love IFS, but I also feel like it's, compared to the SER, the amount of emotional work that I do, I don't think it needs to be so complex. I think simple is better. But that's just me.

Leah:

You know, what's interesting is is Richard Schwartz, Dick Schwartz. He wrote the book You're the One You've Been Waiting For which I think is a great

Willow:

Great book. Yeah.

Leah:

And he started to discover this and map this out when working in Mental health institutes that were treating Anorexia, bulimia, and some, not much of the overeaters, um, eating disorder or binge eating. But a lot of the binge eating was also in conjunction with bulimia. And so, he was really, this whole thing got birthed from working with patients who were suffering from those conditions. And, and so if you look at it as a whole, this whole process is just being able to give names to the part of you that reacts. You know, when you're in a situation and you will react to something, it's usually a disturbance to various relationships with yourself or with other. And it's just, it's a helpful way of parsing all of that out and realizing that most of the time our reactions are, are fueled by something that happened in the past, and I feel like it's it's a way of resolving those, Those original wounds so that therapy is just more effective. That's, that's what it's given me at least.

Willow:

Yeah.

Leah:

So,

Willow:

Sanskrit, it's called a sanskara. And it's a, it's basically like, it's a little pocket in time that you used a way or a modality or a strategy to protect yourself. And then when you get reminded of like, Oh my God, that thing that was happening when I had to protect myself in that certain way. Later on in life, that samskara takes over your, um, choices that you make in that current moment. So, the opportunity when those, uh, when those, you know, samskaras come up or these parts come up, the opportunity is to actually get closer to them, look at them, become friends with them, understand them, and watch them transform before your very eyes. There's actual medicine in them for you. There's actual lessons and wisdom and so much inside of these parts or samskaras or whatever the heck you want to call them, gremlins, demons, whatever you call them, there's something in there for you to, to change, to become more of the ultimate self that you are through understanding them.

Leah:

Yeah, I think it's just the bottom line. It's a way of just getting more integrated and, and, um, and treating yourself and your journey with more compassion and love. I think, um, and I think it's a useful thing for just having a more embodied relationship to what's going on in your nervous system when you start to get flooded. It's, it's, it's a helpful way to track that. And. I think when it comes to sexual issues in particular,

Willow:

Mm

Leah:

you know when, when you've had some kind of sexual disruption at some point in your life that has felt traumatic or at least very important to, to how you identify. yourself, especially when it's in a negative way, you notice that it just ends up, it feels like it's such a huge part of your reality because it's, it's screwing up every relationship that you're in. Somehow it starts to upset some thing that you want so bad that keeps on failing for you over and over and over again, whether that's intimacy inside or outside of the bedroom, whether it's multiple relationships that end, whether it's just feeling dysfunctional or You know, the way with which you wake up and realize I've been blaming this on everybody else. Maybe I'm the only constant here and I should do something about it. Like, it's, it's a really, I think, faster, more effective way of pursuing therapy over just traditional therapy where you're just talking, talking, talking.

Willow:

Absolutely, yeah. You'll get a lot further a lot faster with this work. And it can really coincide and support, you know, talk therapy, so.

Leah:

yeah. So if you want to go to the IFS website, I believe it's www.IFS.org, but I'll double check that and put it in the show notes. There's a whole list of therapists that you could do this work with all over the world.

Willow:

That's right. And you can check out Veronica too, because she definitely specializes in this around sexual trauma. So,

Leah:

you know, one thing I wish we would have had more time to, you know, talk to her about was really her sex work as a sex worker and some, and a little bit more about like her addiction and if her addiction ever flared up as a sex worker. Um, I think her,

Willow:

that too.

Leah:

yeah, so we might have to see if we can't find a copy of her book somewhere in a used bookstore or

Willow:

Yeah,

Leah:

So, thanks everybody for tuning in.

Willow:

Much love!

Leah:

Love, love, love.

Announcer:

Thanks for tuning in. This episode was hosted by Tantric Sex Master Coach and Positive Psychology Facilitator, Leah Piper, as well as by Chinese and Functional Medicine Doctor and Taoist Sexology Teacher, Dr. Willow Brown. Don't forget, your comments, likes, subscribes, and suggestions matter. Let's realize this new world together.

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Dr. Willow Brown

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Leah Piper

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Veronica Monet

Guest