The Sex Reimagined Podcast

Keeper Catran-Whitney: From Billboard to Breakdown - Fame, Family, & Sexual Abuse | #107

• Leah Piper, Dr. Willow Brown, Keeper Catran-Whitney • Season 2 • Episode 107

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Have you ever wondered about the hidden impact of childhood sexual abuse on siblings? Keeper Catran-Whitney, shares his raw and powerful story of growing up in a family shattered by sexual abuse. But here's the twist – he's telling it from the brother's perspective. Yeah, we're going there. Keeper, the author of Helplessness: The Emotional Health Challenges Brothers Experience Once We Learn Our Parents Have Sexually Abused Our Sisters says "The only way you heal is by talking to people." Ready to challenge everything you thought you knew about family trauma and healing? Hit that play button now!

YOU'LL DISCOVER:

  • Why emotional health trumps mental health in trauma recovery
  • The unexpected challenges brothers face when sisters are abused
  • How to break the cycle of generational trauma (it's possible, promise!)
  • The game-changing power of hope in healing family wounds

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Leah:

Welcome to the Sex Reimagined Podcast. We're your hosts, Leah Piper and Dr. Willow Brown.

Willow:

And today we interviewed the one and only Keeper Catran-Whitney, who is the author of the book Helplessness, The Emotional Health Challenges Brothers Experience Once We Learn Our Sisters Have Been Sexually Abused By Our Parents. This was a very deep conversation, uh, little, little intense for those of you who come from a history, so, of sexual abuse in your childhood. So, trigger warning.

Leah:

might feel sensitivities around topics like sexual abuse and

Willow:

incest. Yeah, take it, take it slow, but I think you'll, you'll get a lot of healing from this episode. It was really powerful.

Leah:

Super powerful, um, to hear this man's story of growing up as a sibling to sisters who were being sexually abused in the family and all the complexities that he experienced and went through just, uh, a really important perspective on how sexual abuse affects the family, both, uh, especially long term. You know, the journey, the decades that this story, um, uh, how it reveals itself to Keeper and, and then now to you is something that I think you're going to find very fascinating and it widens our perspective and sensitivity towards each other. So tune in, turn on, and fall in love with

Willow:

Keeper Catran-Whitney.

Announcer:

Welcome to the Sex Reimagined Podcast, where sex is shame free and pleasure forward. Let's get into the show.

Leah:

All right, welcome to Sex Reimagined, Keeper.

Keeper:

Thank you. Thank you for having me.

Willow:

So excited to dive in with you, Keeper. You've got such an incredible story to share with our audience and we're just thrilled to, to jump in with you. And I wonder maybe if we might just start with, you know, learning more about your roots and, and where, uh, where this start story began for you. Take us through your childhood. Yeah.

Keeper:

for me to let people know this is a very challenging topic and it could be triggering for some people. And so, with that, if you need to, To step back, you need to pull back, definitely protect yourself always. So, uh, my childhood, well, let me just jump to how all this really came about. In 1971, my family, we were very poor. I lived in South Central LA. by the time I moved out, I had lived in 21 different places. I was homeless three times. I went to eleven grade schools before I graduated high school. We were always on the move from city to city, state to state. And that was just because we couldn't afford it. And so in 1971, as I started off saying, my mother, who was a very good singer, and along with her brother and her sister decided to form a group in the hopes that they could make extra money. However, as good as they were, it wasn't enough to pull us out of the situation. So one day our mother Uh, asked us if her eight kids, I am number two of eight, four boys, four girls, I am the second oldest, if we wanted to sing. Because we were always around the house singing, and at that time we had the Jackson Five, and everyone wanted to be the Jackson Five. Who's loving you? I want you back! You know, all of that sort of stuff. We were in it, and we had obviously great role models with our mom, and she said, you know, you guys want to do this? Because if we do do this as a family, we could make more money. The next thing you know, we are singing in after hours night clubs all over LA.

Willow:

Wow.

Keeper:

up, going to school. Friday, Saturday, Sundays, we were singing constantly and we started to create a name for ourselves. The energy started to develop within the city and one afternoon on a Saturday, we are rehearsing. The phone rings. My mother goes to the phone and she says, Hello? Who? Hold on a second. And she looks at her eight kids and says, Michael Jackson's on the phone.

Willow:

What?

Keeper:

that Michael Jackson. She then looks at my brother directly underneath me and says he wants to talk to you.

Willow:

Okay. The

Keeper:

up the telephone. No, he's the third of four boys, but he is the fourth child.

Willow:

Got

Keeper:

Gets on the telephone. Hello? Uh huh. Couple of minutes later, hangs up the phone. Looks at us and screams. He says he's heard of me. He says I sing and dance just like him. He says for us to keep going. We will get there someday. Just

Willow:

Oh my God, that's amazing.

Keeper:

Now imagine, yeah, Michael Jackson of the Jackson 5 calls our house. Laughs. Because he's heard that we sing and we perform and we are a family that's doing all this stuff. Jump cut to 1977. Everything we touched turned to gold. We were still poor. We could still make, barely make ends meet. But in 1977, we had made the coveted Billboard magazine's top 100 three times.

Leah:

Wow.

Keeper:

Two singles.

Willow:

That's

Keeper:

An album. We were on covers of magazines, right on magazine, teen beat. We were just concerts. We were everywhere. Still

Willow:

is it that you were still poor? Yeah.

Keeper:

because fame does not guarantee riches.

Leah:

Right.

Keeper:

Fame is about notoriety

Willow:

Right.

Keeper:

and you have to get to a place where you begin to make money. to add to your question, even in a more greater sense, fame was knocking on our door. We were with United Artists Records at the time, and yes, you put out all these songs, but you have to pay back that money that they put into the album. So, Motown Records. Who had lost the Jackson 5 to Epic Records three years earlier called.

Leah:

was gonna say, when does Motown get involved? I grew up

Keeper:

had put out an exhaustive search to replace the Jackson 5 for three years.

Leah:

Oh, is that right?

Keeper:

who discovered the Jackson 5, Suzanne DePass, was bringing us to Motown. We were their new group. We were the group to replace the Jackson 5. They had created the TV show for us. In fact, I have the pilot episode in my office.

Leah:

No way.

Keeper:

They had created all of this ancillary, exciting stuff. They wanted us to hit the ground running because the Jackson 5, who were pretty much driven by Michael Jackson every, you know, you get a little germane, all eight of us sang lead.

Willow:

Mm

Keeper:

did background. It was, as many people said, you guys are bigger than the Osmond. You guys are, you guys do everything. In fact, there's so much here. Where do we begin? So, the week that we were to sign the largest new artist contract with Motown finally arrived. On a Saturday afternoon in the summer of 1977, there was a lot of activity at our house. My sisters were constantly talking, but it wasn't a happy talk. Now we knew we were going to be signing this contract in three days, possibly four, there was a lot of agitated talk between my sisters. And there were doors slamming, they were like bees buzzing, but something was out of place. Because my sisters were always very bubbly. My three youngest sisters, they are the youngest of the eight, the last two being twins. And then my oldest sister, who's the third oldest,

Leah:

Okay.

Keeper:

Something was just weird.

Willow:

Mm,

Keeper:

So, but we know we're going to have this family meeting on Saturday to discuss when we're going to sign the contract and everything was going to change for us. In fact, I like to say the bus was outside. It was revved up. The door was open. All we had to do was walk on to the bus and we were gone. Our lives were about to change forever. And the fame of which we just spoke about two minutes earlier, a few minutes earlier, you know, Willow is now about to become those riches. It is about to happen. My oldest sister screams upstairs, boys come downstairs family meeting. We come running downstairs. I'm the last of the four boys to enter. I look on the couch and my three youngest sisters are sitting on the far corner of the couch, but they're not talking. They're not saying a word. Like that's weird. I look at my brothers like what, we're about to get out of this situation. We are about to become rich. All of our dreams are about to come true. What is going on? And my brothers look at me like, I have no idea. Why are they so quiet? Because my sisters were always talking. They were always cracking jokes. They were always bubbly, but nothing.

Leah:

Wow.

Keeper:

the living room, my oldest sister was pacing back and forth across the archway and she's mad, but that's not all that odd because she was, could always be mad. She and my mom were always at loggerheads. At

Leah:

old are the sisters at this, at this age, this

Keeper:

time, my sisters are nine, eight and nine years old. I'm 16.

Willow:

mm Okay.

Keeper:

My older brother is 17. And all we did was sing, rehearse, and go to school. We didn't gang bang because the, the crypts in the blood surrounded us. That was our neighborhood from Compton to Long Beach. That was where we lived, but we were intent on getting out of there. So I look at my brothers, as I said, and they're like, we don't know what's going on, but I go and I take a seat anyway on the couch. A couple of minutes later, my mother and stepfather enter the room. My stepfather immediately walks and sits in this brown recliner and does this like, what's what's going on? This is about to be the happiest day of our life. What

Leah:

Right, it's not like there's a heavy vibe going on.

Keeper:

Oh,

Leah:

quiet.

Keeper:

heavy is not the word.

Leah:

Oh, really?

Keeper:

My mother walks to the front of the room. My mother is also very bubbly, very effervescent, full of energy. And she turns around and her face is,

Willow:

Hmm.

Leah:

Drawn. Wow.

Keeper:

she looks at her eight children. She's mad.

Willow:

Hmm.

Keeper:

I don't know what the hell is going on. I'm 16 years old. The most important people in my life are all gathered to hear this great news.

Leah:

Oh.

Keeper:

Unbeknownst to me and my four, three brothers, my sisters were discussing what they wanted us boys to know that day.

Willow:

Mm hmm.

Keeper:

My mother is about to utter the wordsno brother could ever prepare for. She's about to utter the words no brother ever wants to hear. She says, Your stepfather has been molesting your sisters for years What did you just say? What are you talking about? Me and my brother's worlds begin to break. Now, California, we're known for our earthquakes. Our earthquakes happen all the time. They break bridges. They break buildings. They damage houses. They uproot trees. Those are physical but material things that break. When you are hit with an emotional earthquake, the damage can be so traumatizing, so intense, so severe, it's almost impossible to come back from it fully.

Willow:

Mm hmm.

Leah:

Yeah.

Keeper:

Me and my three brothers were just hit with an emotional earthquake that rocked our world. I'm hearing, liquor store, this apartment, Taken to this part and I'm not able to put things together. It's just not adding up. Not what are you talking about? We don't deal with this. It is often said. And every family that no one can break our family apart.

Leah:

Right.

Keeper:

No one outside this family is going to do it. They don't have the strength to do it. They don't understand who we are, what we're about.

Leah:

Right.

Keeper:

And that's usually the case. But that also is usually the case that is never the people outside the house that does the damage emotionally that destroys you. It's the people within that you have to pay attention to.

Willow:

Mm hmm.

Leah:

Yes.

Keeper:

just hit with an emotional earthquake number one three in a ten minute span

Willow:

Ooh. Gosh.

Keeper:

my mother Leah here comes my mother says after a couple of minutes of us boys not understanding What just happened? I have known

Willow:

Mm. Mm.

Keeper:

all along

Willow:

my goddess, that's intense.

Keeper:

You're a brother and you just hit with news that you did not expect to hear you We were expecting to hear we were citing this contract in a couple of days. We are gone.

Leah:

Right.

Keeper:

my sisters knew what was coming.

Willow:

Right.

Keeper:

Of course they did because

Leah:

Well, this has been happening

Keeper:

they were experiencing it

Willow:

four, all four of them.

Leah:

And they knew that day that

Keeper:

at that time, it was the first two.

Willow:

Okay.

Keeper:

I learned about 12 years later, 12 years ago, that it was all four.

Willow:

Okay. So, no, so that day they just told you about two, but all along it was all four?

Keeper:

only focused on the oldest two.

Willow:

day. Okay.

Leah:

but it was happening to the twins as well, and the twins were the youngest.

Keeper:

yeah, we learned about the twins 10 years ago, maybe 12 years ago today.

Willow:

Wow.

Keeper:

It's what they finally told us. Earthquake number two. Mom, what do you mean you knew it? We're just tumbling down this abyss. We are just into this void and there are no handles for us to grab onto. There's nothing to arrest our descent. It's like, emotionally. PTSD is swallowing us as bad as those two things were. It was what was said by our oldest sister that locked us down for 45 years, me and my brothers. After my mother said what she said, and my brothers and I are not fully comprehending, you know, because how do you do this when you're 16? When most adults hear something like this, they cannot handle it.

Willow:

Right.

Keeper:

How are 16 year olds, 7 year olds going to handle it? And oftentimes people will tell you who find out later, Oh, dude, I would have done this. Girl, I would have done this. Noise, noise, noise. You don't know what you would do. In fact, you would probably do what we did, which was just like, What is going on here?

Leah:

state of, like, freeze. It's hard to comprehend. You hear the words, but they need to process.

Keeper:

There is, the processing is a lifetime of processing.

Willow:

Mm

Keeper:

My oldest sister. Turns around and points at her four innocent brothers and say and said you can't talk about it It didn't happen to you. It only happened to us girls. You can't talk about it ever and like that relationships between brothers and sisters that were so incredibly tight lay on the living room floor broken destroyed And so,

Leah:

of her saying this is a was she saying this is a secret and you're not allowed, like, beholding you to keep this a secret in the family? Was that the point of what she was saying?

Keeper:

it was multi layered.

Leah:

Okay.

Keeper:

That, that, that is the layer that most people grab onto initially. That's, that, that's the surface one.

Leah:

Right.

Keeper:

what it was about was about protecting herself.

Leah:

Yeah.

Keeper:

and about protecting her sisters. That's what it was about. And of course at the time, me and my brothers, we didn't know how to handle that because the people we needed to speak to the most, our sisters, just told us, we want nothing to do with you. And what we hear in that moment as a brother is, you don't matter. Your feelings don't matter. Your voices don't matter. You are going to be put off to the side forever. Put on a shelf, tucked away in a closet, and locked up, and that's exactly what happened, but I get what my sister was doing. It took me a while, and because historically what men have done to women, absolutely. But we are innocent brothers, and we were found guilty by gender proximity. Period. Because,

Leah:

thing.

Keeper:

yeah, what's between our legs is between the legs of the person who has been attacking her. And when you are a, a child, what made it really start to compound was our heroes, the people we trusted the most, our parents. were the ones who were behind the whole thing. So we had nowhere to go

Willow:

Yeah, it was like every rug got pulled out from under you all at once. Massive

Keeper:

it, it was devastating. And when you are a brother, you, you find as you go through and can try to process, and there was no one that we could talk to. There was no one who understood. For my sisters.

Leah:

So there's that. I mean, even if there was someone to talk to, you feel beholden to this thing. And so then there's just more shame probably collects around the story, would you say?

Keeper:

the guilt, the shame, the betrayal, and there were many of woulda, coulda, shoulda moments on my part. It is all in the book. There are things that I could have and I should have done,

Willow:

Mmm.

Leah:

Oh,

Keeper:

that took years for me to finally figure out what I had to do. But in the process, we were being held to account. We weren't invited to a conversation, but then we were being held accountable for our lack of participation, which makes it incredibly difficult. How Can we be held guilty because we're hearing whispers as the years go by and times go by that how could you not Hear me crying. How could you not see my tears? But that's the process for the predator is to make sure that does not happen and my sisters being very afraid Did what they were supposed to do now, there are millions of articles There are newspapers, there's magazines, there's movies, there's documentaries on the, uh, uh, uh, uh, that have to do with women's account. There, we're starting to see stories of men talk about their sexual abuse. But when it comes to brothers, we are the taboo. We are the, the group not invited to the child sexual abuse conversation. It is, as I said, our, our feelings don't matter. So where do you go? What do you do?

Leah:

So how were you feeling, Keeper? Can you talk, can you say about what was happening inside of you in that moment, aside from the complexity of those three bombs being dropped, what was happening inside of you? What did you want to say if you could have said something?

Keeper:

I don't know, uh, that there was anything that I could honestly come up with. Anything that I could say. The shock was too great.

Willow:

hmm.

Keeper:

The, the, the trauma was too great. What you start to feel, obviously, is this ultimate betrayal

Willow:

What had your, what had your relationship with your stepfather been like before you found this out?

Keeper:

Of everyone in the family, of, talking about my siblings, the one person who never fully embraced him. was me?

Willow:

yeah.

Leah:

Oh really?

Keeper:

Yes, in 1969, we left my biological father in Portland because he was incredibly abusive to my mother. My mother had my older brother when she was 17 and she finished having all eight of us by the time she was 24. She was a

Willow:

She was a

Keeper:

She was, I tell her, I said, you were on your back the entire time. And she said, well, baby, I never had a headache. You think? So that was her thing. And. In that process, the need certainly for a woman back in the 50s and even the 40s, the need to be accepted and have approval for a man and knowing, you know, I need him because he's out doing this was tremendous. And so she was willing to suffer the slings and arrows that he was throwing at her, the life threatening moments that I constantly witnessed in order to keep him around because she's got eight babies and I need to feed these babies. I need him to be here. But it had gotten to be too great and so she, along with my aunt, put all eight of us kids in a car and snuck down to Los Angeles from Portland without my father knowing.

Willow:

Wow.

Keeper:

She then meets this guy who I never fully embraced. There was just something wrong

Willow:

Mm.

Keeper:

And so, part of the, the thing for me was, Whereas my siblings tend to be more, more embracing of him. In fact, my older brother looked at him as a hero and he will admittedly tell you that because he looked at it, wow, if a guy could come into our family and just take on eight kids and just be willing to do that, he must be a great guy. And that was never my feeling. I always felt there was something wrong. Now. My sisters being sexually abused, that puts me in the collateral damage category, but it is devastating nonetheless. Even though I did not know about what was going on, me and my brothers, we were still being impacted by it, even though we didn't know about it. It was determining

Willow:

Energetically, how could you not? Yeah.

Leah:

Yeah.

Keeper:

lot of what we did and didn't do.

Willow:

Mm hmm.

Keeper:

However, for my oldest sister, she was not aware at the time that six years prior to her and her sisters being sexually abused, me and my older brother, we were sexually abused by our babysitter almost daily for six months.

Willow:

Oh, wow.

Keeper:

We were forced to watch her Masturbate for six months almost daily and While she's doing this, she wanted this alcohol bath that me and my brother had to give her while she's doing this.

Willow:

Mm.

Keeper:

So they're The reason why I bring that up. It's because oftentimes when I am speaking to women about it They will tell me well, you know, your sister's right. It did happen to you boys. Well It did happen to us It didn't happen to us in an even greater degree once we knew about it. It did happen to us. So we cannot get to a place where we're trying to compare my trauma versus your trauma. That doesn't help

Willow:

Yeah, that's not futile.

Leah:

agree with you more on that.

Keeper:

Yeah. And so when we, so I, I, I mentioned mine because oftentimes, as I said, when I tell women, they say, well, you still can't talk about it. Then when I tell them I was sexually abused and they said, Oh, you do understand. I'm like, yeah, I do understand. I understand both sides

Willow:

you understand from, yeah, from multiple perspectives. And as a brother who was really close with your sisters, I want to ask you about your relationship with your siblings now as well. But, I mean, being so close with them, it's like you feel a responsibility to protect them and to take care of them. Especially, like, with your father out of the picture, not ever fully trusting this stepfather. Yeah.

Leah:

being a

Willow:

There's so many layers.

Leah:

there are so many cultural conditioned layers that are weaving into this story that I think are really fascinating. Did the abuse stop after this family meeting

Willow:

question.

Leah:

or did it continue?

Keeper:

No, it didn't stop.

Willow:

Wow.

Leah:

Yeah.

Keeper:

People will ask me what happened in the immediate aftermath. In the immediate aftermath, my mother whisked my stepfather out of the living room before we kids could ask any questions.

Willow:

Mmm.

Leah:

Oh, really.

Keeper:

they were upstairs for about 20 minutes without questions.

Willow:

Mmm.

Leah:

Okay.

Keeper:

There was no doubt about it. My mom is very much about image and so we, we kids sat on the couch and just looked at each other not knowing what to do or what to say or where to go. As I said, my sisters already knew what was coming. Their feeling that day is the boys need to know.

Leah:

Wow.

Keeper:

we do this deal because can you imagine us reliving this over and over again after we've gone to Motown and now become an episode of VH1's Behind the Music?

Leah:

Right.

Keeper:

we will constantly be traumatized. So my mother whisks him out of the house and we're thinking okay at least she did that. But two weeks later she let him back in. And my mother told us I will handle this. I will take care of this. So that meant I didn't have to do anything because she was going to do finally the right thing even though there's still a lot of work to be done. I went nine years without doing anything and it wasn't until three months prior to me getting married that The guilt and the shame of me not doing anything just started to suffocate me.

Leah:

Really.

Keeper:

To the point that I started going to a very dark place. Because I realized that when men are having these kind of situations, we're not boys in grade school, in elementary school, it's usually a life and death situation. But I, I let my mom have her moment because quite frankly it was a warm blanket. It meant I did not have to do anything but in the process there's this constant betrayal of my sisters.

Willow:

Yeah.

Leah:

Okay.

Keeper:

of who I am and what I want to be. So three months before my wedding I told my fiancee, uh, who is my wife still to this day. We've been married 38 years.

Leah:

Oh.

Keeper:

I, I told her, I said, thank you. I said, I've got to go back home for the weekend. She said to me, are you okay? Is everything going to be all right? I think so.

Willow:

Mmm.

Leah:

Does she know

Keeper:

I knew what I, she didn't know the story until maybe 10 years ago.

Leah:

Oh, wow.

Keeper:

didn't tell anyone what I was about to do

Willow:

Oh.

Keeper:

because I, I just had to handle it. I could not myself getting married knowing that my mom was still seeing him.

Willow:

Yeah.

Keeper:

Which meant if she was seeing him She was going to put him around my sisters

Leah:

then he would have

Keeper:

out that's exactly what she did

Willow:

hmm.

Keeper:

She not only put him around her he took advantage of it He ended up raping one of my youngest sisters and getting her pregnant

Willow:

M G.

Keeper:

And her reward for that was my mom wanted her to get an abortion which she didn't want to do. But she ended up doing and the reward for that reward was my mother saying, I'm not going to take you to get the abortion. He's going to take you to get the abortion because my mom was all about image.

Willow:

Oh,

Keeper:

And we had sex trafficking for, for, we had so many things going on. So as I'm getting ready to get married, my thought was he has to be gone. Period. So I go back to the house. And yet we are still singing.

Willow:

All of you, together. Yeah. What happened

Keeper:

oldest sister, my oldest sister left. My youngest of the twins left. My, the brother underneath me left. But we kept going and we ended up making Billboard in 1980 again. And even with just We were still trying to do something because we kept going because we were contractually bound.

Willow:

Uh huh.

Keeper:

to do so. And we, our thought was okay can we still make something out of this even though we knew that there's so much damage

Willow:

Yeah.

Keeper:

So that weekend that I go home and because my bedroom is still there, there are two bedrooms at the top upstairs. My old bedroom and my mother's stepfather's bedroom. And I go there thinking okay this is it. He's got to be killed.

Leah:

Killed.

Keeper:

Not just gone, he has to be

Willow:

dead. Yeah.

Leah:

Okay. And so you're going with the intent of killing him. Yeah.

Keeper:

thinking that that's going to solve everything.

Willow:

Right.

Keeper:

That wasn't going to solve anything.

Willow:

Right.

Keeper:

That was going to make things worse, especially for my sisters who immediately would think I shouldn't have said anything. I should have just kept quiet. I should have just let things go as they were, and he would still be here. I'm in such a dark place at this time.

Willow:

Mm.

Leah:

Wow.

Keeper:

But I'm a brother and I know that for me, the definition of being a brother is protecting the honor of your

Willow:

Mm.

Leah:

Yeah.

Keeper:

Ultimately, that's, that's my job when it comes to my sisters. If they need something, they need me, I show up.

Willow:

Mm hmm. Mm hmm.

Keeper:

Protecting their honor. And I'm going in touch, like I said, it's such a dark, dark world. I had determined that my life was going to be forfeit that night and I was good with it.

Willow:

Wow.

Keeper:

so good with it. Either he was going to die and I'm going to jail for premeditated murder, or he's going to kill me, which then means he's going to go to jail and be there forever too. But my sisters would be okay. It was such warped thinking, but I had no one to talk to. And I still had yet to speak to my sisters. They still wanted nothing to do with me and my brothers. And me and my brothers, we never talked about it. In fact, we didn't talk about it until for the first time, 10 years ago today.

Leah:

Wow. Yeah. Wow.

Keeper:

So I get to the house and I go to, go to the bedroom and I open the window. It's a nice cool summer night and the breeze is coming in and I hear the crickets down below. I can hear them now. The wind is just, it feels great, but I am sweating profusely. I'm a mess.

Leah:

Your adrenaline must just be pumping.

Keeper:

I'm, I'm reimagining again what my sisters went through. I'm reimagining them being pulled into a closet, door closed, dark, hearing a zipper go down, zip, his pants hit the floor, and he has his way.

Willow:

Mm hmm.

Leah:

Right.

Keeper:

I, I vividly imagine him bringing my sisters into their bedroom, doing the same thing, and it turns out as I write what I imagined going on in my book, uh, one of my sisters said, that's exactly what

Willow:

happened. Oh, wow.

Keeper:

How you imagined it happened.

Willow:

Is exactly what

Keeper:

what happened, and more. But that's, as a brother, that's where you go. And there's still no place for a brother to go at this time. There, as I said, there are articles, there are magazines, there are talk shows, there's all sorts of things for women, but nothing for men. 12 step programs, we didn't even have a one step

Willow:

program. Right.

Leah:

Right.

Keeper:

So I'm waiting for my stepfather to come out of my mother's bedroom, where the two of them, uh, where they're rooming, which is about 30 feet away from us. Those are from me, upstairs. And I hear him knocking her around. I hear dressers hitting, I hear perfume bottles hitting, banging around, and a couple of them hit the floor. And I'm just sitting, on the bed. Okay, lean back, relax, take a deep breath, you know what you have to do, this is it, this is it, this is it, then the doubt comes in. Are you sure you want to do this? Are you sure you want to do this? Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, they need you, they need you, they need you. You have failed them already. You need to take care of this. Okay, okay, okay. Wrestling against the door jam is my favorite baseball

Willow:

Mm.

Keeper:

We

Leah:

you're 25 years old, right? Is that about the age that you're at?

Keeper:

Yeah, 26. Yes. And this, this is it. And I know that I, that my betrayal is overwhelming me. And as I said, I'm ready to give my life up for them. So finally I hear. The door open from their bedroom. I hear this creak and I look up. What are you going to do? Are you going to do it? This, this is

Leah:

it. This is the

Willow:

moment.

Keeper:

Yeah, because if I get married, I'm going to miss my chance.

Willow:

Mm. Big

Keeper:

I

Willow:

Oh

Keeper:

door very slightly and I look out and I see him coming out. Now he's six foot six, 250 pounds

Leah:

Oh, geez.

Keeper:

this giant afro wig that puts his height over seven feet tall. I am five foot 8, 145 pounds.

Leah:

Wow.

Keeper:

I did not care.

Leah:

Wow.

Keeper:

I have already determined I need to meet him at the center of the hall but at the center of the hall is a short wall about three and a half feet tall that overlooks the stairwell and I know when I come out I cannot have my back to the stairwell because if he doesn't like what I'm about to say all he has to do is

Willow:

Push.

Keeper:

and I tumble down and potentially snap my neck. I'm dead.

Willow:

yeah, yeah. I

Keeper:

I

Willow:

also know I can't meet him at the top of the stairs

Keeper:

because

Willow:

that's where my bedroom

Keeper:

door is,

Willow:

because

Keeper:

all he has to do is, chh, and I tumble down.

Leah:

Okay.

Keeper:

I meet him at the middle of the hall, near the short wall, and god damn it, if I am not in the wrong place, my back is to the short wall. And I immediately realize I am in the wrong place. So how do I spin this 6'6 250 pound man to the wall another 90 degrees because when I look at him, my face is literally in his chest. I mean, I cannot look over his shoulder. That's how much bigger he is than me.

Leah:

Wow.

Keeper:

I get right up in his chest because as I said, that's where my height brought me to. And I moved to the left, which then meant he moved to his left. So we're 90 degrees. I'm like, finally, I take a deep breath and I look up at him and said, you have 24 hours to leave this house. Because if you are still here by this time tomorrow, you will be dead because I will have killed you.

Willow:

you said it.

Leah:

to him.

Keeper:

I gave him 24 hours.

Willow:

Okay,

Keeper:

I turn around and walk to the bedroom and I hear these footsteps. Thump, thump, thump, thump, thump. I'm like, God damn it. He's right behind me. I close the door and I'm waiting for the door to open and I'm still hearing footsteps, but they're fading.

Willow:

going the other way.

Keeper:

He's going the other way. Closes the door. Okay, get up, leave the house, but I know I have to come back the next day and make sure the job is done because I gave him 24 hours.

Leah:

Right, right. You gotta follow up.

Keeper:

I'm a brother trying to make amends, trying to give my sisters some sort, some sort of closure, even though they still will not allow me to talk to them.

Willow:

And some of your sisters are still living in the house, right? At this time, when you're 26. Yeah.

Keeper:

Yeah,

Leah:

So then what happens? You go there the next day, and how does the story resolve itself?

Keeper:

story really doesn't resolve itself until 2019. But this episode resolves itself. I go back the next day and I get ready to walk into the house that I have my bat with me, and I'm, I'm, I'm ready to hit this home, run the greatest home run of my life. I'm ready to do what needs to be done. And then I stop and I say to myself, no, leave the bat outside. The situation's already aggravated. Uh, if I go into the house and he has a gun, he's immediately going to shoot. So I leave the bat outside next to the door jamb. I slowly open the door, fully expecting him to be standing there with a gun in hand. I walk in and nothing. He's not standing there. I walk to the stairwell and I listen. No sound. Walk to the living room, walk to the dining room, walk through the kitchen, nothing. But then I hear some sound in the back of the house. So I walk to the back of the house. We have a makeshift studio back there. We're working on some demos and stuff to submit for Warner Brothers at this time. Because that's where, who we were with and our next billboard achievement was with Warner Brothers. Open the door, my youngest brother's there and I say to him, is he still here? And he says, no, he left.

Willow:

Mm,

Keeper:

So he's gone. But the greatest regret of my life is going to take place in three months.

Willow:

mm,

Keeper:

Because I'm the brother who put him out of the house and yet I'm the brother who brought him back in.

Willow:

mm. How'd that go down? Jeez.

Keeper:

to have

Leah:

twists!

Willow:

we're hanging on by our fingernails here. Keeper.

Keeper:

I wanted to have a relationship with my mom.

Willow:

Mm,

Keeper:

And I try to be a man of my word if I'm going to say something. I really try to live by it, even though the consequences may not be good for me. But if I give you my word, I'm going to. Okay. Because I know if I had kids, I want them to possibly know their grandmother.

Willow:

Yeah, yeah.

Keeper:

So I go to her and I said, okay, look, Understand I do not want him at the wedding. And this is me offering an olive branch, you know, trying to create some sort of, who the hell knows.

Willow:

Mm hmm.

Keeper:

a relationship with someone who has betrayed us for years, who empowered him. So it was kind of the Stockholm Syndrome kind of thing. You know, I still want the approval of my mother. I still want the approval of my father. And we give up so much with that when we really don't have to. But as children, we so typically do that regardless of how old you

Willow:

Yeah, absolutely.

Keeper:

So I told her, I said, I do not want him at the wedding. However, I'm going to leave that up to you.

Willow:

Ah.

Keeper:

But let's be very, very clear. We do not want him there. And she says to me, okay, give me a couple of days to think about it.

Willow:

Hm.

Keeper:

And in that moment, I knew what I had done.

Willow:

Mm.

Keeper:

She's going to have him. there because she's all about image. There were going to be industry people there who were invited to the wedding. There were going to be other family and stuff, people who don't know what's going on and she did not want him to not be in the wedding and have to answer all the questions about this child's sexual

Willow:

abuse. Mm

Keeper:

So he was in our wedding and my regret is that I got him out but I'm a brother who put him back in my sister's world.

Willow:

mm Oh,

Keeper:

I betrayed them trying to create some kind of relationship. And that created a 45 year gap of barely talking to my sisters through two of them. I didn't talk to at all what I hardly talked

Willow:

mm.

Leah:

Wow.

Keeper:

it was a matter of how do I become the man my sisters want me to be? You see, because without the help we brothers need, how The men we grow to become is completely dependent on whether we get help or not and understand what we're going through, but there were no conversations like that.

Willow:

But did your sisters blame you for that? They did. Hmm.

Leah:

think sometimes you're, you're so angry and hurt, from being hurt,

Keeper:

yeah, but I heard them

Leah:

make a general,

Willow:

Everyone's to

Leah:

of this is who men are and they're bad and they hurt you and you stop seeing The men in front of you and you start seeing the perpetrator in front of you and each man And so then your attention goes to the perpetrator and every man and so you stop putting your attention on the greatness and men You start putting your attention on The suspicion and the hurt and they only want one thing, you know, and this story, this loop runs a script in your head and you're, you can't actually be with people in a way. I mean, that's

Keeper:

in this instance, I, Put him back in front of them. You see, that's

Leah:

You didn't hold the boundary

Willow:

like you stepped in to protect and then

Keeper:

Yes.

Leah:

wasn't solid.

Keeper:

then I let it happen again. And so I, I get it, you know, I, I understand. And so there

Leah:

they also understand that there's this, also this child in you, even though you're 26 years old, trying to right this wrong that is so complex and so confusing and fraught with all this danger, a lot of emotional danger in particular, and you're still a little boy who loves his mom, and wants, and wants to keep people together, and, and, so did everyone get to a place of seeing the innocence in each other?

Keeper:

No.

Willow:

mm, mm,

Keeper:

and certainly my sister did not get to the place of seeing the innocence in her brothers. It's interesting that you mentioned the emotional aspect to this. There's plenty of talk today about mental health,

Willow:

hmm.

Leah:

Yeah.

Keeper:

and I don't think the problem is mental health. I think the problem is emotional health, which is why I look at the emotional health, um, difficulties or challenges that brothers experience after we learn. Mental health, as we focus on it, is, it's singular. It means it's only you when you are alone. It is, doesn't include anyone, but let me write you a prescription. Let me write, give you a drug. Let me send you to this person. The problem is all yours. To me the problem has never been all yours. It's never been one. It's emotional health in my estimation. That is the challenge. So for me and my brothers, the emotional trauma of the PTSD, the betrayal, the guilt, the shame of all of it and then trying to understand who we are and what we did and didn't do and could have done and should have done and all of this. These are emotional challenges and emotional health means a shared experience.

Willow:

relational.

Keeper:

It's an experience that is inclusive, that allows you to bring other people in to talk to people, for instance, like the two of you.

Leah:

Yeah. That's well said. Yeah, you don't ever think about it that way, but you're

Keeper:

yeah, to me it has always been the emotional health and yet it is so easy to sell mental health because it's a pill. And pharmaceutical industry, they, they leap onto the pill, they leap onto the drug. Emotional health, oh no. That requires you to have conversations with other

Willow:

people. Mm hmm,

Leah:

Yeah.

Keeper:

invo it. It means you have to be vulnerable and maybe they're gonna be vulnerable. You're going to learn what they have gone through. I went to a conference in 2013, which is what caused me to write this book. Lisa Nichols, who's a great author and a a great speaker, had this conference on how to write a book in 20 minutes. So I decided to go. I was gonna write a book on a different topic, but this was pulling me so much. I'm gonna write this book helplessness, but I need to tell my sisters. Not because I want their permission, but because they need to know what's coming.

Leah:

Were

Keeper:

so I go to one of them.

Willow:

and your brothers too, right? I mean,

Keeper:

Yeah, my brothers, but my brothers are not the ones who told me I can't talk to them ever.

Willow:

True that, yeah. I'm curious about your relationship with them now too.

Keeper:

relationship with my brothers, two of my brothers, I don't talk to because they have yet to recover.

Willow:

yeah.

Keeper:

the others, my oldest brother and I, we have a great relationship. So I go to this conference in San Diego. And I get called on the last day to talk about the book I want to talk about. The room goes silent after I share a lot about what my idea is. I go back and I sit at my desk. And if you know, I am surrounded by so many women. All of them saying I had no idea. This is what my brother has been experiencing until you talked about what brothers go through. It was overwhelming.

Willow:

Yeah.

Keeper:

I got up and I walked out, closed the double doors and I'm in the hallway hyperventilating because I was not expecting that. The double doors burst open and so many women surrounded me. I didn't know. I had no idea. I need to talk to my brother. He needs to know. He knows but I told him he can't talk to me. It wasn't until three separate women told me I should have told my brother what was going on because he heard about it and three of them said my brother killed himself because he felt that he should have been able to protect me.

Willow:

Yes.

Keeper:

didn't know and he didn't know the full extent and so that's ultimately where brothers can go with this. Our guilt and our shame, first of all, of not knowing. Our guilt and our shame of not doing something immediately. As my, one of my twin sisters who read the book said, I was shocked that you boys didn't do anything. It wasn't until I read your book that I understood.

Willow:

you didn't,'cause you didn't know what to do. Yeah,

Keeper:

Yeah. And then, as I said, you told us we can't. It is again, the, the, the juxtaposition of you can't talk about it ever, but I'm going to hold you accountable for not talking

Willow:

about it. Oh, it's a double bind.

Keeper:

do you square that? And then you start to get the comparison. Yeah, you know, it happened to me, but you're, you're a brother. So it's worse. And then we start trying to compare apples to oranges. We cannot do that.

Willow:

You can't compare them. No.

Keeper:

If brothers and sisters are going to be allies, which they can be, then you talk. In my book, three of my sisters contribute

Willow:

Oh, that's wonderful.

Keeper:

Two brothers contribute. So you get a full family view

Leah:

Wow,

Keeper:

and they will contribute to, they'll contribute to the book, Hopefulness, which is how you find hope in the middle of all of this and what our experiences were. And they will contribute to the book, Happiness, because unless you as an individual are willing to accept that you are a victim, you can't go into the, I'm a survivor mode. If you're always in the victim mode, you can't do anything. Going into and beginning to understand I am a survivor means I have some power. I can begin to find my way back. Then you have to understand this is a part of you. It's a part of your DNA.

Leah:

Right, it actually becomes a part of this epigenetic thing, you know, I mean there's this, there's this thing that gets passed on too, like this ends up being a multi generational wound within a family complex. And what's so interesting about your story keeper, it's like you can see the isolation that each of you are experiencing within this dynamic. And thank God, like 10 years ago, it sounds like you started to find your way into collaboration, so that some of you could start to move this, this story forward, so you didn't have to stay stuck in this isolation, but, I, because I'm really touched by how you made the distinction around there's this emotional thing versus this mental health thing, and the mental health thing is like, okay, here's the individual who's gotta get well. We've got these chemical imbalances and we take this pill and we try to fix our psychology. But this emotional thing requires communication collaboration. So it forces you out of isolation. And, yeah.

Keeper:

the only way you heal.

Willow:

That's the

Keeper:

cannot begin to heal until you start to talk to people. And in that process, it becomes cathartic. You start to see that the bonds that were holding you down begin to melt away, but you have to be willing to accept, I need help. And the only way to get out of it is, as you're saying, collaboration,

Willow:

hmm.

Keeper:

acceptance. Trusting, love, hope. It all becomes part of the same thing. Many people will tell you that love is the most powerful word. I don't think so. I think love is the second most powerful word. The most powerful word for me is hope. Love predisposes that you can get there. You can achieve that. But you can only achieve that if you have an idea. If you hope for it in the first

Willow:

place. Right.

Keeper:

So I think the most powerful word is hope. Hope means opportunity. Hope means change. Yes, yes, and if you have hope,

Willow:

yeah.

Keeper:

Yeah, then you can believe love is possible if you have hope. If you don't, because when, when predators and people try to take things from you, do they try to strip you of love? Nope.

Willow:

No, they strip you of hope,

Keeper:

try to strip you of hope. They don't want you hoping for anything better. They want you to stay right here.

Willow:

that's the ultimate oppression. Right.

Keeper:

Brothers, we ended up being the group that no one asked about. No one asks if we're okay. No one asks if we need to talk. We are left

Willow:

to your own. Yeah.

Keeper:

I feel we need to have an elevated voice in the conversation if we are really going to help people. There are some 44 million Americans walking around who've been sexually abused every day and many of them don't get any help. And as it relates to child sexual abuse, every day in America, 166, 160 children are reported to have been sexually abused. Reported every day. So, last night, someone walked into little, some little kid's bedroom, who after a long day of playing on the schoolyard, playing with their friends, going to the swings, going to parties, doing whatever, someone walked in their bedroom.

Leah:

Right.

Keeper:

It will happen again tonight, and it will happen again tomorrow night. And our only way through this is to accept that there needs to be a broader conversation. So, um,

Leah:

Well, this is a really powerful message, I think, not just for brothers, but for siblings, you know, because I think, um, speaking from experience, your, my experience is just like you're centered in what your own experience is, and you're not aware of your experience in the shadows within the family dynamic, how that's affecting the other people in the family. You can't see it. It's like there's just tunnel vision, right? And shame, sometimes the sensation of shame and fear is so overwhelming, it's so encompassing, it's so engulfing

Willow:

Yeah.

Leah:

that you just can't put your attention on anyone else's sensations. You can't put your attention on what other, what's happening, but you get to a place in the healing journey Where some of that sensation starts to calm down. And it's becomes less and less intense and the body starts to settle and the more healing you can do, the more that sensation dissipates and it makes it so much more possible for this conversation to happen. Thank you so much for writing this book and for bringing attention to the, to the rest of the family.

Willow:

Yeah, and to the world, really, and to starting a whole conversation around the world, I understand that you've got, um, you know, some exciting opportunities to spread this message even further and wider out into the world coming up.

Leah:

So, can you just sort of share a little bit, like,

Willow:

Where this is all going.

Leah:

Yeah, how are your sisters now, and how are your brothers now, the ones that you're in communication with?

Keeper:

With three of my sisters I have fabulous relationships with now because I did what the author of the book Feel the Fear and Do It Anyway, Susan Jeffers, recommends which is Feel the Fear and Do It Anyway. I picked up the phone.

Willow:

yeah.

Keeper:

And those were very, really hard conversations, and it was very filled with so much fear and doubt, but I ended up doing it anyway, and so I have fantastic relationships with three of my sisters. As I said, they even are contributing to these books,

Willow:

amazing. That's a, an amazing healing, I imagine, for all of you,

Keeper:

Yeah, yeah. Two of my brothers I have great relationships with. My older brother up in Portland, and my older full brother. But two, I don't. Uh, I don't have a relationship with my mom. Uh, I finally got to my stepdad in 2021.

Willow:

mm

Keeper:

Took care of business with him. So, uh, those relationships, I never would have imagined that they would be where they're at today. But it's, it's, it's, it speaks to what you need to do and that's talk.

Willow:

Yeah.

Keeper:

Because I know regardless if you're a man or a woman, a boy or a girl, we all want the same things. We all want to be seen.

Willow:

That's right.

Keeper:

We all want to be heard. We all want to be understood.

Willow:

Right.

Keeper:

you know, and find some tools or some systems that help us move forward in an empowering way with our lives. And I think if we were all just, uh, cognizant of that. Everyone wants to be seen and understood. That's a great place to begin any relationship, in any healing process.

Leah:

What advice would you have for a sibling or a brother who is wrestling with their own experience in their own family? Where would

Keeper:

First of all, I

Leah:

available now that wasn't available 30 years ago?

Keeper:

Well, there's very little available now still.

Willow:

Which is why you're pioneering this. Yeah.

Leah:

Yeah,

Keeper:

um, I don't know of any other book about the perspective of brothers, so I would tell

Willow:

Get your book.

Keeper:

men certainly yeah, they can get the book on Amazon all day long and we have podcasts and you know I'm really honored to be on your podcast that helps spread the word. But I would tell brothers I understand know that you are not alone. That's that's a part of it you are not only alone, but you're made to feel alone. You're made to not have a voice in it. You are not alone. There are many brothers who understand. In fact, there are many sisters and many women who understand. The challenge becomes in who's going to make the first step to having the conversation. And I would encourage any man or brother, you make the first step.

Willow:

Yeah.

Keeper:

Because understand, historically, women have been so beat down from sexual abuse. I don't expect them to be the ones to step up. In fact, my brother has a great saying. He says, every guy should just assume every woman you know has been sexually abused. Just assume that. Period. And guys, we have our own challenges, yes, but nothing like women. Just assume they have either been sexually abused or they know someone who has been sexually

Willow:

Even just culturally, like it's in the, you know, it's just in there. Keeper, can we share with our audience sort of what you have on the horizon as far as birthing this more largely into the world? Because I think it's pretty exciting.

Keeper:

Well, I'm sure you want me to

Willow:

Yes, I do.

Keeper:

Okay. Uh, what is going on with me right now? I am being interviewed on radio shows, podcasts, TV, almost every day for the next six weeks. And it's just growing and growing and growing because people are starting to understand, okay, we need to have this conversation about brothers. Uh, conversely, the, I have my very first meeting this afternoon, uh, my book is being, uh, the screenplay is being written by,

Leah:

Woo!

Keeper:

a studio in Hollywood who wants to make it into a movie or into a miniseries, uh, because they see the value in, we need to have this conversation with brothers. Certainly in light of the fact that more and more men uh, are talking about their sexual abuse thanks to celebrities, be they sports figures, athletes, or whomever talking about it. But we still need to have a conversation with brothers. Uh, I am waiting That would

Leah:

really change so much to see a movie telling your story. Wow.

Willow:

Okay, we're cheering that, we're cheering that meeting on. It's later today.

Leah:

Yes. Yes.

Keeper:

that's to later today is the first of many strategic meetings. The process has already started. They're already moving with

Willow:

it. Good.

Keeper:

So that process takes you to where from six to nine months to a year to get it all

Willow:

done. For sure.

Keeper:

Uh, and now, uh on the next week or so whether or not i'd land my ted talk or not So to go to an even greater stage um

Leah:

Kiefer, this

Keeper:

is so A lot of that is due to to come in on shows like yours who are willing to give me some, some time to talk and, uh, bring a conversation that people otherwise would not necessarily have and make them aware. That's the thing. Understand that brothers need to be a part of the conversation.

Willow:

Absolutely.

Leah:

Everyone, the book is called Helplessness, the Emotional Health Challenges Brothers Experience. Once we learn our sisters have been sexually abused by our parents, you can get it on Amazon. The link will be in the show notes. Um, make sure you check out Keeper's website. He's got a bunch of videos on there, sharing the story, talking about this on, on more levels. And, um, Keeper, we can't wait to have you back. You know, let's,

Willow:

When that TED Talk is, is on

Leah:

and um,

Willow:

series is up,

Leah:

that's right, and when you're on Netflix, gonna, we'll get

Keeper:

you know, I'm, I'm thinking maybe the next time we talk, I might be able to bring a sister with

Willow:

That would

Leah:

Oh, that'd be wonderful.

Keeper:

wouldn't it? To have us.

Leah:

Yes.

Keeper:

About this side by side.

Leah:

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, we'd love to have one

Willow:

That would be phenomenal.

Leah:

That would be great. Um, well, thank you so much for, for coming on the show and we'll stay in touch.

Keeper:

you for having me once again. You guys take care.

Leah:

You bet. Alright everybody, stay tuned because the dish is coming on up.

Announcer:

Now, our favorite part, the dish.

Leah:

Dish a dee doo dah. Dish a dee dish. It's a

Willow:

Oh my goodness. This is going to be quite a dish, y'all. That was, uh, that was some serious. I like that he kind of gave us a, you know, in the very beginning, like, if this is too much for you, feel free to pause and take a break and digest. Cause so many of us have so much experience with sexual abuse and, and childhood sexual trauma and sexual, even just not sexual, just. So Then there is the collective trauma and you know, he touched on so many layers and aspects of shame and guilt and you know, not knowing what to do. As children, we just don't have the resources. Resources! We don't, we didn't learn, we don't know what to do, and even as adults, so many adults don't have the resources, I mean, that's what Leah and I are here to do, is to teach people how to resource themselves so that they can heal on a much deeper level. And, um, yeah, just a bow down to him for his courage, for his bravery, and for his, you know, just really seeing the importance of sharing this story with the world.

Leah:

And such a unique perspective being, um, the brother, right? You have all this cultural conditioning about what it means to be a brother, what it means to be an older brother, what it means to be a black brother, what it means to be the protector, and then to feel sort of the, the feminine outrage being transferred onto you and then feeling the sense of like helplessness to the degree that you're ready to commit murder just to get some relief from the complex emotions of feeling like you haven't been there, you're not allowed to be there, and this is the only way out. And then to find that sort of only partly was successful. You got him out of the house But now due to the still the need for the love and the approval of mother The whole thing comes back around and now you still feel self blame self recrimination Is if any of this is your fault to begin with, you know, even even the stepdad coming back really isn't his fault

Willow:

Absolutely

Leah:

right, you know, and so then you have the mom who's You can see where the majority of the responsibility in many ways lays on her. But then you're, then you can start to feel the complex wounding

Willow:

Of her.

Leah:

in her neuro, in her nervous system due to the trauma that just

Willow:

went through that one, she, yeah. It's hurt ones, hurt ones, right? That old saying, and it's like, who's gonna break the pattern? Who's gonna stop the cycle? And, um, I had a client the other day say to me, she's like, oh, I just saw this phrase somewhere, like the, the, um, the healing doesn't happen until somebody actually feels the pain. Like until someone in the bloodline takes the time to sit with it, to feel it, to heal it, to be with it. And it sucks to be that one, you know, but it's also like a, pretty amazing, powerful journey and really opens up so much healing. You start to look around your family lines and you start to, things start to, like conversations with your siblings, with your parents, with your grandparents, start to open up in ways that you could not make happen. But some kind of magic, um, translates when you do this deeper work and you take the time to feel and actually heal the trauma, the family trauma in your bloodlines.

Leah:

Yeah, and and so much of this yes, you can go to a therapist by yourself and you can do your You are part of the peace, right, of the self reflection and the tears and the walking yourself back home from the shame and the guilt and the fear. You can do so much of it, but it amplifies when you come to collaboration. It shifts so dramatically, the experience of liberation becomes so much greater when you can be inclusive of, you know, the people that were in the periphery of the experience also. And, and then for you to understand that they have a direct experience. And it's so interesting how we're so unaware sometimes of other people's experiences that are either bystanders or were co conspirators at one point. Um, people who didn't know but were in the field.

Willow:

Yeah,

Leah:

the energy, you know, and then things start to come into place as to like why this feeling was always there. That never made sense. It's so complex, it's so layered

Willow:

It's constellations, you know, family constellations, and even constellations beyond the family, like, you know, how many of those, of the sisters, then went, you know, and had relationships with other girls on the playground, or other boys on the playground, what was going on there, like, the constellations are so complex. Pretty vast and we have no idea what's, you know, and what, what was happening with that stepdad, like where did all of his pain and all that

Leah:

Right. And

Willow:

why was he Yeah, and the mom and you know, just so many layers and layers.

Leah:

One question I didn't get a chance to ask that I wish I had was like, how did this affect your relationship to women? How did this

Willow:

I wanted to ask that too because then he

Leah:

sexual man being

Willow:

I wanted to ask about his sexuality too. Yeah, next time,

Leah:

yeah, pretty amazing. He's been with his, his

Willow:

partner,

Leah:

way to go almost 40 years. It's such an accomplishment. So many of us don't, won't have that experience.

Willow:

Yeah, exactly.

Leah:

That's a whole nother, you know, reality. Yeah. So,

Willow:

All right, everyone. Well, let us know what you think about this episode. We'd love to hear your thoughts. Please, please don't hesitate to be vulnerable with us. If it feels too vulnerable to share on one of our social media platforms, you can always reach out to us directly at support@sexreimagined.Com and we'd

Leah:

a message on our speakpipe, uh, channel and link. You can find that on the website where

Willow:

Those are private messages. Yeah.

Leah:

we're the only ones who check on me and Willow. So, um, with all that, have a beautiful day. Thanks, everybody. Love, love, love.

Announcer:

Thanks for tuning in. This episode was hosted by Tantric Sex Master Coach and Positive Psychology Facilitator, Leah Piper, as well as by Chinese and Functional Medicine Doctor and Taoist Sexology Teacher, Dr. Willow Brown. Don't forget, your comments, likes, subscribes, and suggestions matter. Let's realize this new world together.

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Dr. Willow Brown

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Leah Piper

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