The Sex Reimagined Podcast

Andy Heller: Is Your Marriage Over? How to Navigate Divorce with Grace and Protect Your Kids | #105

• Leah Piper, Dr. Willow Brown, Andy Heller • Season 2 • Episode 105

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Meet Andy Heller, our guest on this episode of Sex Reimagined. Andy isn't your typical divorce expert - he's a successful businessman who never planned to write about relationships. But after going through his own high-conflict divorce and realizing the gaps in existing divorce literature, Andy spent seven years researching and interviewing experts to create a comprehensive guide for navigating divorce with compassion. In his book "Take the High Road: Divorce with Compassion for Yourself and Your Family," and throughout our conversation, Andy offers practical, compassionate advice for anyone facing divorce:

HERE'S WHAT WE'RE DIVING INTO:

  • The secret sauce to an amicable divorce (hint: it's not about winning)
  • Co-parenting 101: How to keep the peace for your kids' sake
  • Money matters: Smart financial moves during divorce
  • Dating after divorce: When and how to jump back in
  • Dealing with a high-conflict ex (without losing your cool)
  • The long game: How your divorce impacts your kids' future

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Leah:

We got a flood of subscribers to our YouTube channel this last week. Thank you so much. We love seeing the show grow and the platform grow and our channel grow. So just want to say thank you for all of you who are taking the time to do that. And if you haven't done that already. Well, stop waiting, friend. Subscribe to wherever you're listening to the podcast or watching the podcast. I'm Leah Piper, the Tantra expert at Sex Reimagined, and I am with

Willow:

Dr. Willow Brown, your Taoist expert, and today we had a very unusual guest. He's not an expert per se in the field. However, he did write a very important and very helpful book on divorce, Take the High Road. So Andy Heller, Uh, he just, he was actually a successful businessman, had all kinds of success, wrote a couple of books on real estate that were great, and said, man, I'm never writing another book again because it's an arduous, hard thing to do. But then, went through his divorce process, started reading all these books on divorce, and realized, oh, I can't do this. Okay, actually I do need to write another book because there's some holes in all of these books that I'm reading and I want to fill the gaps. So he wrote an incredible, like, manual on how to go through divorce and how to take the high road. So you're going to dig this interview if you are thinking about divorce, in the middle of a divorce, already through a divorce, or have a friend going through it.

Leah:

Yeah, I think this is so good. He really went around, did all this due diligence, so you don't have to. He interviewed lawyers and therapists. People who have gone through it to really give people the best practices to have the best outcome. So that you feel like you took good care of yourself through the process. And you also took good care of your kids and your finances. And hopefully can remain generous with your ex, um, and work together instead of working against each other, which is so hard to do in divorce. So it's time to tune in, turn on and fall in love with Andy. Ha ha ha ha

Willow:

right.

Announcer:

Welcome to the Sex Reimagined Podcast, where sex is shame free and pleasure forward. Let's get into the show.

Leah:

Welcome to the show, Andy. So glad to have you.

Andy:

you, Leah, for having me.

Leah:

You bet. So we know you've had quite the journey and you've written about this journey in your latest book. Can you share a little bit about yourself and, and what inspired you to talk about divorce, knowing that you're a businessman and you had other pursuits and probably were surprised to write a book about divorce.

Andy:

Well, I'll try and give you my story, Leah, in less than three or four minutes. So we can leave more time for talking about other people, but my story is very interesting. So I am a successful businessman. Um, my maid, I had a business running a shipping company. I've taught real estate. I've written two real estate books two decades ago. I swore Leah, I would never write another book again because it's very laborious. So.

Willow:

is. Oh my god, I can attest. I'm like in the throes of a book proposal right now. It's driving me crazy.

Andy:

Dr. Willow, I can be your therapist for that one, alright, so,

Willow:

Andy. I'm calling you after this podcast.

Andy:

alright, so, you know, every human being has a different, um, process for managing stress. I had a high conflict divorce of my own, Leah, and two things about me is, I don't sleep a lot, because you got a lot on your mind, and I just write notes. And as an example, when my mom was passing away in hospice, my notes actually became an article that got picked up by five newspapers in the Mother's Day after she passed. So I'm going through my own divorce, I'm writing all these notes, whatever, and I'm that guy in a group of friends, everybody's got a guy like me in a group of friends, I'm kind of I'm very, very compromise oriented. I always try to see both sides. People say, well, Andy, this is what's happening. What do you suggest? What do you suggest? So, um, I consider myself a reasonable thinker. So, I'm not ashamed to say that my divorce was kind of high conflict and my, our co parenting counselor, Suggested that my ex and I, we each get a therapist. So I said, okay, give me a couple names of therapists who've done a lot of work with divorced men. So I found this lady, she was amazing. She was my, she was my rudder. Alright, so, something happened with my ex I'm like about a year into it. And rather than act on it right away, I had this appointment coming up with my therapist. I said, alright, I know what I want to do, but I'm just going to wait. I'm going to bounce it off my therapist. So I go in there and I said, okay, this is what's going on, but don't worry. I've thought it through and here's what I'm going to do. So she immediately went into the therapy speak. Well, you know, Andy, I'm glad you think that way, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, but you're not going to do what you go, you want to do. You're going to do the opposite. What? What? And after I stopped saying, but, but, but, but I, I, I shut my mouth and I listened to her and she went and said, okay, Andy, this is what you're going to do. And this is why you're going to do it. And. She was 100 percent right, Leah, and I was 1000 percent wrong.

Leah:

Wow.

Andy:

And I left that session with a realization. Here I am. I'm not out to hurt my ex. Um, I consider myself a pretty reasonable guy. I was not conscious of the degree to which I was emotionally compromised and not making good decisions. And I realized in that session, um, I am not able to navigate this on my own effectively. And then I looked at my notes that I've been writing for a year, year and a half. I'm like, oh my god, I got the outline for a great book. Now the only part I left out of my story is, while I'm not sleeping, I'm reading all these other countless divorce books. And they're not, I'm a big believer, even the worst book, if you get one nugget, it's not a, it's not a, it's not a waste of time. But, these books are, there's a book about talking to your kids, there's a book about dealing with your ex, there's a book about narcissistic exes, there's a book about sex after marriage, uh, I mean, all this stuff. And the fact is that most people don't have as much time as me, and they are going to get more sleep than three hours a night, and they need everything in one book. So, I went ahead and started a 7 year project of researching and I used my business background and I, I, I interviewed countless therapists, uh, kids therapists, uh, uh, individual therapists, I interviewed co parent counselors, divorce attorneys, and tons of couples who went through high conflict divorces, thought it would never get better. But yet landed in good places. So what do you do right? What did you do wrong? So my book is actually a one stop shop best practices manual for how to get through a divorce, including difficult questions like re entering the dating world, uh, when to tell your kids you have, uh, somebody new in your life. Um, uh, what, when is the right time to date and not to date? You know, what, you know, how to manage co parenting with somebody you couldn't live with under one roof. Now under two roofs, and all these things into one book, and the, I did not write this book to make money, the, the, the facts, uh, Dr. Wheelo, I'm not gonna try to depress you right now, but statistically

Willow:

a moneymaker. It's just a labor of love.

Andy:

Oh it is a total labor of love, one out of a hundred books make money today everybody, so I, um, and I've got a good career. I wrote this book as corny as it sounds, to help others. Um, I saw a gap in the divorce space that I was uniquely qualified to fill. And you know, look, it's the, the, the feedback I've got from the therapy community and more important from couples who, people who've read the book, men and women, said, Hey, you really helped me, has been rewarding. So that's what brings me to your show today. And I'd love to help as much as I can. Now, one thing I'll say is my book is not about my divorce. Andy Heller is not an expert. What I did was I interviewed field experts and took their counsel and I organized it in a best practice manual. In fact, my own divorce is not mentioned anywhere. So, anyhow, so that's my story. I'm sticking to it, ladies, and I'd love to talk. Take the high road. Divorce with compassion for yourself and your family.

Willow:

Love it.

Leah:

that. Yeah. What was some of the, what was like the biggest piece of advice that you took that you also see other people taking? Because it's maybe that surprising or that effective. Mm. Mm

Andy:

I'm going to make it, it's a really simple one. It does get better, guys. When you're in the thick of a divorce, you think, oh my god, my life is in the toilet. It almost always gets better, everybody. And I'll add a caveat to that. If you, if you're going through divorce or you've got a friend who's going through divorce, probably the most powerful thing you can say is divorce is a marathon, not a sprint. And, and it takes a bit longer to get to the finish line. That finish line could be two or even three years after you sign your papers. But most people do land in a place that you're healthier and happier. What things like your show and my book. Tools like that can do is accelerate that process, alright, but you will land there, the goal, what I'd say, is let's try to get there faster instead of later.

Leah:

Yeah, so it seems like when people are facing divorce like the big things on their mind is is a your heart's broken Or you or you're feel bad that you broke someone else's heart. Um, you're worried about your kids if you have them you're in the money Any any anything else you would add to the list? It seems like those are the big three I would I would couple the house with money. But yeah, the house could be

Andy:

yeah, well, yeah,

Willow:

Well,

Andy:

why am I here?

Willow:

like, sell the house, you know? Remember? She was like, get rid of the house

Leah:

Start over. We'll

Andy:

Yeah, well, um, speaking about the house, I'd say the right answer is different for every family. Okay, and I can speak to that if you want, but you guys covered actually most of them. The only thing that I would add, and this is actually a surprise one, and this actually, again, this book is not about my divorce, but my own experiences did give me hints about some helpful chapters. And, um, In my world, everybody, my ex was a super, uh, she was a super mom, great mom, stay at home mom, uh, she just great, great, she cooked great meals, she handled, got involved in kids schools, and set up the playdates, and I was a classic workaholic guy. Now I was totally involved with my kids lives, but I was a hard worker, all right? So, um, I had like one dish that I would cook when I had, like, a great date, and that was it. So I had to reinvent myself, and so did my ex, she had to go back into the working world. So, the one stressor that you didn't mention, that I think is so overlooked, is the stress around changing roles. Because you have to become competent, because in a typical household of two, The way it typically works out is one of the, uh, um, one of the adults will say this domain is mine I got, I got the finances. Don't worry about that. And, um, uh, in another, another says, okay, well, I'm going to cook six of the, six of the seven meals a week. You cook the other one, whatever. I'm going to do this. I'm going to do that. I'm going to do this and that. But when you go to a two household environment, you've got to become competent in things that you're not good at. And, in my own world, it was even amplified because when I split up, not only could I not cook, but my kids were on gluten free diets, they had nut allergies, and no lactose intolerance. So, imagine learning how to cook, I mean, buying snacks for schools was hilarious, guys. There was, um, there was vanilla flavored rice cakes, there was strawberry flavored rice cakes, there was raspberry flavored rice cakes, and just for some variety, blueberry flavored rice cakes. That was it. That was it. That was Andy Heller buying snacks.

Leah:

Yeah.

Andy:

So, so one of the biggest stressors that is really overlooked is you need to become competent at things that your partner was really good at. You don't have to become great at it. So my, I set out, like, I didn't want to be mac and cheese dad, but I wanted to cook healthy, uh, meals for my kids. Uh, and that was so stressful, so I rolled up my sleeves, I got up some, got out some cookbooks and I, and I learned. My ex had to go back into the business world and get a job and she, she hadn't in, in years and I, I know that was stressful for her. So each of us had our own areas that really, um, uh, caused tremendous anxiety and this is my opinion, one of the most overlooked stressors when you're splitting up.

Willow:

Yeah. Like stepping into a whole new identity at a, also usually commonly at an age when you're like ready to start looking at winding down, you know, you're wanting to just head toward retirement and start to kind of bring things back into a more sedated place in your life. And then this big upheaval happens and it's like, Oh my God, you're starting from scratch. In a way, I feel like that keeps people young, keeps them healthy and young in a way. I mean, it's stressful. However, um, you know, re, renewing yourself and, and rebuilding yourself from the ground up at any age, whether you're, you know, in your forties, fifties, seventies, eighties, is going to, um, give you fresh perspective. And I think fresh perspective is really uh, what keeps us young.

Leah:

But I think it's also hard to get a fresh perspective in the beginning. You're just

Willow:

Oh, at first you're like, I'm trying to survive. Yeah.

Leah:

and you don't know how the next day's gonna go. I mean, I just remember being one of the older kids watching my parents get a divorce, like, they were a hot mess. It was a very challenging handful of years. And, um, yeah, it was really sad and hard to watch them just fall apart around themselves, you know, and they were trying to hide it from us. But, you know, I would, I was seeing, I was seeing things they probably didn't know that we were

Willow:

That you were

Leah:

Yeah, like watching my mom just fall apart in tears and finding out my dad's in the fetal position, calling my mom, you know, it was just like, so sad. There was no fresh perspective. There was nothing but doom and pain and guilt and victim.

Willow:

What about down the line, like after they kind of

Leah:

took years. It took years. Yeah. It was not easy. It took a long, long time. Sometimes I think there's, there's parts of them that still aren't over it.

Willow:

Mm.

Andy:

Yeah, one of the benefits of today's generation is I think we have a lot more self awareness. I mean, honestly, a service, and I'm calling your show a service, like yours didn't exist for our parents generation. So, um, and they were far more private, which I think has its downsides. So, uh, but today I think you can certainly take conscious steps like reading my book, like coming to your show, like getting a therapist that can really accelerate that process because, um, it is difficult. Uh, so, um,

Leah:

emotionally too. It's like the shame and the guilt. I mean, I guess the best outlook for that is therapy and also like Dr. Willow mentioned, it's seeking a fresh perspective. Not knowing that it's hard right now and maybe you can't see the light at the end of the tunnel, but you can seek the light. You can seek a way forward and having somebody help you be in what it is today and feeling that fully. But also cultivate what can you look forward to seeing that and I think this thing is for kids It's like kids want their parents to be happy. Even if that means they're happier apart. I know that was true certainly for a lot of families that I know and for myself with my parents like I just wanted a Happy dad and a happy mom and if they couldn't be that for each other I wanted them apart. And I think a lot of people assume that kids just want their parents together no matter what but really they want you happy And if this is the way to get there, then trust me, they want that for you. What are your thoughts on that?

Andy:

You're not leaving me anything to say. That's a home run. That's correct and that's actually in my book. Um, and that is a child in the end just wants their parents to be happy. And very often that is in separate households. Uh, and that's one thing we parents that are going to get divorced can remind ourselves of. Um, yes, in a perfect world, you have a healthy marriage, and you're raising the kids under the, the original biological household, but that's not always possible, uh, for a variety of reasons. Um, and, uh, but again, I mean, if you want, if you look at two different scenarios for raising children, a scenario under one roof, biological parents who are clearly fighting and not happy, versus 1 Two different homes where the parents have some level of co parenting, uh, collaboration, but the households are calm and happy. You have as much, you're, you're given, you're, you're raising these children with the, with a higher likelihood of having good relationships themselves. Okay. So like I've remarried and my children are, they are older now, but they have in my household, they have uh, a great example of a, uh, of a, of a warm, loving relationship. Um, my, my, my ex had a, had a, had a partner she was very close to for a number of years who lived together, lived together. They also had that in their households. So I think that's important, um, and, and that is certainly almost all the therapists will tell you that if you cannot live happily together, it's better to separate.

Leah:

Yeah. I think also, what kind of advice would you give? I think one of the things my parents did really well in their divorce is they did not talk bad about each other in front of us. They were really supportive of us being respectful and loving and seeing the best qualities in them. It really wasn't until my 30s that I started to hear, like, the truth of how they really felt. And by that time, you're, you know, you're a little more stable to hear those things and you can, hopefully you have enough awareness to not take on your, your parents bad feelings for each other and really just stay concentrated on your relationship with that parent and judge them on the basis of that. But you know, does that, have you, have you in your research and talking to people, does that arise? Like how do you, especially when you have some feelings about your ex spouse, navigating what you tell the kids and what you expose your kids to regarding your own feelings, how do you manage that well?

Andy:

Well, I have um, you touched on a, what I would call a fundamental point of divorce is don't bash your ex. So, that is in most good divorce books. I do have something in my book that is, was absolutely, um, blew me away when I learned this, and this came from an interview of a therapist. So I give the same advice, but with a different caveat layout, and it's this. The therapist said, a children, even as young as three and four, they understand one thing intuitively, that they are the biological product of the DNA of two people, a biological father and a biological mother. So assuming the divorce is a, a, a mixed gender, uh, I guess call it a traditional family, um, and you're splitting up when one spouse, former spouse, criticizes their former partner, the child processes this as self criticism. And you run the risk of affecting the child's self esteem because you're criticizing half of their DNA. So this was a, a way of saying the same, something that's been saying for years, don't bash your ex, but in a, in a completely different way of how a child processes it. And to me, it's one of the most powerful things that I realized during my seven years of research, which, and that went into that book.

Leah:

yeah,

Willow:

did you know that while you were in your divorce process or you learned it later?

Andy:

Later. I mean, I learned that when I was researching my book, um, but I also, you know, you know, I, I, I can't speak to what happened in my, my ex's household. Um, I, I don't think I was bashed by her. Uh, no, I don't think she did, um, but I know I didn't. Uh, and I was very, very generic, you know, when, when, when, when, when mom's name came up and the kids were younger, I was very, very careful. My, my answers were vanilla. And one of like, I have a couple chapters in the book that deals with how to answer kids questions and when kids bring up things and even things like, well, hey, guess what? Uh, mom's new boyfriend gave me this great gift. And, you know, the natural instinct is to ask questions. How tall is he? Is he better looking than dad? You know, you know, you know, uh, stuff like that. And, uh, um, but you, you, you can't do that.

Leah:

What's he look like?

Andy:

yeah, yeah. You know, you're going to want to ask that, but you, you, you can't, and you've got to take that conversation, acknowledge the child at whatever age, what they've said and pivot. So like, I got a couple of chapters that deal with that. Uh, and that's the reality of, of, of what happens when, uh, when you're separate, you know, you're gonna eventually find new partners get involved. And sometimes the new partners are involved from the start, which, which does make it more challenging. That is a factor that, that, um, you know, if there was a third party that had a, let's call it a,

Leah:

the, in the, in the demise of the

Willow:

in the role?

Andy:

and that, that person is instantaneously involved, um, that will, that does uh, complicate the dynamics and if, if that's happening in your world everybody, that's, it's inevitable, accept it. But I will say to you that um, that it would not be a bad thing to involve a therapist on, on how to handle that because if, if this is a, a permanent partner you want who's in your life, you want that permanent partner to be accepted by your children, you want to have a comfortable environment and you probably don't have the skills, on, on navigating that'cause that is a complicating factor.

Willow:

Absolutely. What's, uh, what's your advice for men, um, who, you know, who might be ready earlier than their ex to start dating again? Let's say, um, you know, they've been going to therapy, the divorce is, like, maybe partially halfway through or something and they're ready, but they know it's gonna hurt their ex, but they would like to start anyway. Any, any sort of like communication, like still keeping, you know, good amicable relationship going with the ex.

Andy:

Well, there, uh, I'm gonna answer your question on two parts. Uh, the first part is, guys, you're probably not as ready as you think you are. That's the first thing. Um, and I, there's a, there's a chapter in the book called Bromance. Well, actually, my, my publisher had me change the name, but the original name of the chapter was Bromance and Womance Before Romance. In other words, um, most likely if you're married, most of your close friends were other married couples. So, put some time, your initial time and effort into establishing yourself a new posse, perhaps other divorced men who've been through it and already landed, other divorced women, okay? Yeah, yeah,

Leah:

advice.

Andy:

the dating will come, all right? And ironically, if you've got yourself a new posse, You're probably going to be going out and meeting some members of the opposite sex. Um, so to the other part of your, uh, your question is just be, uh, be very private and be very respectful. Okay? And, um, uh, you know, if you are still sharing the same residence, Be really, really careful about when you come home and try to come home. Um, because, uh, you're going to need to co parent with this person. And even if your partner is okay to end the marriage and, and she's maybe even the facilitator and wants it more than you. All right. But you, you, you are ready to date. Um, it will hurt and it will make observations that are made about dating

Leah:

Mm hmm.

Andy:

can have a disproportionate effect on making your co parenting more difficult. So take more time than you need. Now, I will say in saying this, Dr. Willow, it is completely natural to be ready and want it and miss it because it's not just if you decide to divorce today. Okay, it's likely the intimacy ended months, if not years before. So it's, it's completely reasonable to miss that.

Leah:

To be hungry!

Andy:

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, and that's why I say the bromance and womance part that will help fill some gaps at a few months in there. Um, and you know what, having a couple guys who went through what you, you're going through to hang with. That's great. That's going to really make it easier for you to step back and start socializing. Yeah, so, um, yeah.

Leah:

That's good advice. You know, I think there's also advice out there that's like, you want to get over someone, get under someone. So, you know, it's like, there's something about sort of, Creating the, the gap, it's like widening the gap and sometimes being intimate with someone helps feel like there's an illusion that it helps get the other person out of your head or out of your heart quicker. And so I can understand why people feel sort of compelled to want to go in that direction, but I think your advice is more sound. Like, focus on friendship.

Andy:

Yeah.

Leah:

regardless of who you are, You end up being intimate

Willow:

get under someone.

Leah:

Yes,

Willow:

It doesn't have to be another relationship, right?

Leah:

and I think, I think friendship is also the key foundation to any good relationship. So if something really romantic or love, you know, the love bubble, or the love kind of gets involved, having that foundation of friendship is just wise. You know, that you start off that way. And one of the things I think is really interesting is about male friendship, because a lot of statistics and research shows that men after divorce, they haven't been really fostering a lot of friendship in their life. And women tend to stay friends from like childhood on. We have this weird Velcro to other women, and it's kind of easy and normalized in our culture for women to have female friendships, but men tend to like, get married, have kids, then their wife is their best friend, and then they only hang out with couples. It's kind of, some of that male bonding is harder to get to, and in fact, it's at this stage in life with men who get a divorce that suicide rates increase for men. Um, and so, and I think a lot of that has to do with loneliness. And so, Like men's groups, men finding other men who they can have something in common with so they don't feel so alone. I think that's just really great advice for them to seek out. And then there's the friends that pick sides in a divorce, right? So you end up losing a lot of friends.

Willow:

Do you talk about that in your book? Like how, how men can go out and find bromances? Like what are, what are some steps? I actually have some clients right

Andy:

Yeah. Well

Willow:

the gym.

Andy:

Uh, yeah, well, I do talk a lot about that and one of the things, one of the chapters in the book is about, okay, everybody tells you kids go number one, kids go number one, kids go number one, and they're absolutely right. But if you don't take care of yourself, you're not going to be as good a parent as you can be. So, one of the chapters deals with um, uh, putting something on your calendar that's new for you to look forward to. So, And it could be also fill one of those needs. So yeah, take a cooking class, join a bowling league, softball team. Um, and through these avenues, um, you may also meet somebody new. Uh, so like, like in my own world, Um, I went ahead and did my, my bromance phase. I, I reconnected with people in the city who were still single. Um, I found, I met, I said, and I called up my friends and I said, look, we're, I'm splitting up. Uh, I don't, I'm not ready for blind dates, but can you introduce me to some guys who've been kind of been through this? Um, I need to make some new friends, single guys. And out one night, ladies, I met the first girl that I dated. Um, post divorce. So, that's where I'm saying that, you know, you don't necessarily have to go the dating apps. Um, you can meet, uh, and let me also say one more quick story about kind of what's out there that shouldn't be out there. So, I was separated, but I was living separately, and I was waiting for the divorce to be signed. So, I was done. I was done. All right, and I did join the dating app. So I remember one date. Now I'm running my own business trying to learn how to parent on my own. So my time was really precious. I go on this one date and I met this young woman at a coffee shop. She's lovely, very pretty, um, very engaging, very nice. She's talking to me and telling me her situation and it said separated. I was separated, but I was definitely separated waiting to sign. Okay, so she goes on to explain. Oh, yeah, so, um, yeah, I'm out there now and you know, well, we're still in the same house You know, um, I'm downstairs. He's upstairs. He really wants to he wants to give it another shot, but I'm ready to move on and I'm like, okay, I I gotta go now. I wasn't rude but what I really want to say is that um If you had told me before, before we agreed to spend the next hour and a half together driving out to meet you, time in the coffee shop, that you are living in the same residence with your husband who wants to rekindle your romance, I would have said you're not ready. So, men and ladies, you may be finding people in the online community who really are not ready themselves. And that is, that can be really demoralizing. When I left that day, I'm like, oh my god, I mean I couldn't use that hour on my business, which I just started a new business and it was just, I felt almost like it was bait and switch. So take your time everybody, um, be selective. The romance will come and ironically it might come faster and more healthy if you're not chasing as aggressively.

Willow:

if you work on taking care of yourself, primarily.

Andy:

yeah, and it will come and you also want to be in a place where you're kind of feeling a bit better. And the other thing that I learned is this when you get back out there is, you know, it's, it's one thing you meet somebody in your twenties and it's all about potential and you know, what is this person from a good family? Do we want the same things in life? But you know, when, when, when you, when you start dating again, late thirties, forties, fifties, I met a lot of people who I, I think just didn't have their priorities right. Okay, some of them just said, I'm going to just have as much, I'm going to, I just want to piss off my ex. All right. And I was kind of healthier. I just, I was, I was done. I was like, I'm ready for that next stage. And I met a, so, you know, you're going to go into a community. This didn't exist when I started dating this, all these online apps and stuff. It's like going to a grocery store. There's so many choices and you can, you can, you can, it's almost like, I mean, I've got friends of mine where it's like, I think it's a drug. You could spend two hours a day on this, everybody, and you've got to set up some, yeah, you've got to set up some parameters. I got one of the best advice, um, and this is not in the book, but this is advice I got from a friend of mine. She said, alright, when you meet people online, before you agree to meet them, ask for a phone date for ten minutes. So I did that. And I did that, and I filtered out half of the people. So, taking, and this will really help you keep your sanity, because nothing is more demoralizing than going on, I mean, I got friends that do six or seven of these dates per week.

Willow:

Wow, and the half of them are no, no, not going anywhere.

Andy:

right, right. So,

Willow:

you got a screen.

Leah:

Well, it seems like it's also a dopamine hit, right? It's like something to distract you with, something that you get to kind of engage. There's a little bit

Willow:

juice. A little ooh la la,

Leah:

Yeah, yeah, but it can be too much of a distraction.

Willow:

Oh yeah, you lose your time and

Andy:

Yeah. Dr. Willow, I wish I hadn't finished my book because I would have used your technical term, ooh la la, in the book. I love that.

Leah:

What about money?

Andy:

Oh, there's never enough of it.

Leah:

Yeah.

Willow:

Somehow that's true, no matter how much you have

Andy:

All right. So, what I'm gonna say, um, is gonna upset some men and some women, um, those that are given the money, but I'm gonna say it anyhow. Um, And if you are the one cutting the check, you want to be as generous as you can be. Why? Well, first of all, it's the right thing to do. Second of all, is if you have kids, I'm assuming you have kids or a child, you know, you want your kids to be comfortable in both homes. Okay. And you don't want your ex to struggle. All right. And you want to be able to look at it. One thing people don't think about a lot when they're getting divorced is you're going to be having conversations with your kids when they're adults. It'd be completely different. And they will quit. And you want to be able to look at them in the eye and say, you know, times were tough, but I did this for your dad. Times were tough, but I did this for your mom. I did the best that I could at the time. And that's really powerful, everybody. Alright? The other thing I'm going to tell you about money that's really interesting, um, you need to disengage. This came from a very powerful therapist. So, it's very common that the one writing the check sees how their former spouse is spending the money and disagrees. Alright?

Leah:

that all the

Andy:

So, you, that's not your job. Your job is to write the check and check out. You can have a say if you feel your children are not safe and not being raised comfortably. But if your ex is getting too nice a new car, if the home is nicer than what you think he or she needs, not your business, your kids are safe. So the money can be replaced, your children cannot. So I know that that is not what a lot of people want to hear. Yep. And the other thing I would say, one more piece to that, um, you know, I, I have, I know somebody in my world who's going through one right now. And my, I was just talking to Uh, uh, actually yesterday to, to the, to them and the family and I said, they're, they're, they're going to court. I said, if there's an opportunity to settle at court and it's a bit more than what you want, take it, run with it and move on because the way you want to look at it, it's like a fence. All right. The over on the other side of the fence is the rest of your life. right. And you're on this side of the fence. The faster you can get onto the other side of the fence and start living the rest of your life, finding yourself a new partner, setting up your new home, the better. And if that quick settlement, maybe a paying a bit more than what you want to pay, shortens that space and gets you over that fence four, five, or six months earlier, it's

Willow:

Take it.

Andy:

Take it, take it. Cause yeah, if you're, yeah. Cause you know, I didn't understand

Willow:

really good advice, and that's good advice for anyone who's like, Oh my god, I'm standing at the edge of the fence, I gotta get to the other side. Like, the sooner you can get to it, the better. Regardless of divorce being in the picture.

Andy:

Yeah.

Leah:

when you can lead with generosity, it just feels better in your soul when you, long term, you know, it may feel bitter in the short term, you know, especially if you feel like your spouse doesn't deserve it and here you've worked so hard and you're giving away 50 percent of your life and if it's the second or the third time you've done that, ouch, um, that is hard.

Willow:

Yeah, do you talk about multiple divorces in your book?

Andy:

Uh, no, it's just, it's really a, a, um, a platform for how to do it the right way. Um, you know, and, and the right way, I don't, the way I look at it, it doesn't matter if it's your second divorce. Um, you still want to do it the right way. Um, so it's, yeah,

Leah:

and I think we should say something about the mindset of the one who's also getting that generosity and, and to be able to like, be in the receivership of that, to, if you can, regardless of your hurt or your bitterness or anger at the time, notice that, you know, take that in, acknowledge it, if you have it in your heart to, to validate it, to acknowledge your partner and say, Thanks, you could have made this harder, and I appreciate you doing the right thing for us,

Andy:

I wish I could take your advice, record it, and put an audio chip into my book. And have people hear that. Because the sad reality, Leah, is at, at that time, I, I, I, it almost never will happen, unfortunately. People say, like, I'm not getting enough, um, I'm not getting enough custody, I'm not getting enough money, and my home is not good enough. It, it's just, the, the dynamic is simply what, what, um, people, just, it, it's warped because of the timing. But you're right, it should happen. And it allows me to make a point, if I had to do it again, I would have changed the title of my book. By Take the High Road, Divorce with Compassion for Yourself and Your Family, many people will take that and say, well, you know, I'm not going to get that book because it sounds like all he's saying is compromise. No, no, that's not what I'm saying. In fact, it's kind of the opposite. Um, what I learned in speaking to the divorce attorneys is that One of their biggest complaints is people come to them and they are not focused, okay? So I want this, I want that, I want this. So I talk about this in the book where you, it's your responsibility to manage your attorney not the other way around. And what you want to empower them with is you go, you go to your attorney and you write down two, no more than three goals that you have. When the divorce document is signed and stamped by a judge, what are the two, no more than three things you want to achieve? Big picture. You give this and arm this to your attorney and you tell him or her, compromise everywhere else. But these two or three things are important to me. So what divorce with compassion for yourself and your family, take the high road means is that be focused. Let them know. Let them have that silverware that you didn't care about in the first place. Okay, you know what, she wants that house, let her have the house. Go ahead and start in a new place. There's something healthy about having, getting in a different environment. Okay, but what do you want to accomplish? What are your big, if you want 50 percent custody and you've been a good dad or a good mom, that's an example of a goal. Alright, so when I say take the high road, divorce with compassion and yourself and your family, it's more about the importance of being focused and if you are focused, you will typically save yourself tens of thousands of dollars because you, you are empowering your attorney to get the things that are important to you achieved and the things that are less important to compromise. Thanks.

Leah:

that's great. I really like that advice. Yeah, stay focused. Um, the most important thing to you.

Willow:

And to figure out what that is for yourself, and you might need a therapist to figure that out. You might need an outside source, because you're in the middle of so much going change and chaos and things shifting so quickly that you don't even know what's important to you. So get some support with that.

Andy:

And that's a really powerful point, Dr. Willow, and even it could be possible that what's really important does change during your negotiations, but what, but what is paramount is to make sure that list is not longer than three things, and it shouldn't be longer than three things, okay? You go in there with, with 15 or 16 things that you want, the only guarantee is this, your negotiate, you're going to be, your attorneys will love you. Okay, um, and the other thing that you, you go to your attorneys and say, I'm going to be done in a month or I'm finding a new attorney. These are the two things that are important to me. Get it done.

Leah:

Wow.

Andy:

I'm done in a month. And, and, and then you're telling that attorney, I'm not going to be your six figure client. And most good attorneys, most good attorneys,

Willow:

They'll be like, great, let's

Andy:

plenty of business, like, They want, they want clients like that. The good attorneys don't want to take all your money. Yeah. The thing about divorce that really,

Willow:

ass for everyone.

Leah:

I think it's demoralizing for them. They see people just tear each other apart and you

Willow:

Yeah, that can't be nice to be around that energy all the

Andy:

yeah. And the other part about this, everybody, is unfortunately you can only control one attorney. And if your spouse does take an attorney who's not as, uh, uh, uh, honest and, and, or competent or reasonable, it could be a complicated factor. All right. But again, your responsibility is to, is to manage your attorney, not the other way around.

Leah:

So what about, okay, and this is the tricky one, I think this is the hardest one of all, is when you're so hurt and you're so angry and you just have an agenda to just screw them over. I mean, what do you do? Is there even a workable solution when someone is just, I want to

Andy:

Well, so you're saying if you're on the receiving end of that, or if you're

Leah:

or, you feel that way, like, how do you shake free of that? Or B, you're the target of it.

Andy:

Okay, if you are that person, then the only, absolutely, positively, I'm going to just be as brutally direct and honest to you, you need to get in therapy, because those types of feelings are understandable if you're hurt, But they're unhealthy. It's going to cost you money, for sure, and it, and it's going to cost you time, energy, and health, and it's going to delay your ability to land on the other side of that fence.

Leah:

It's gonna hurt your kids even more.

Andy:

Correct, correct. Now, if you're on the receiving end of that, alright, the good news is, in most states, there are This is something judges have seen before.

Leah:

Yeah.

Andy:

you just need, you're, if you're on the receiving end of that, you go to your attorney and say, I'm on, in a situation where my spouse is trying to hurt me. I want this done fast. I want to be protected. What's the best path to get this done? My guess is, again, only about 10 percent of divorces end up litigated where you're in front of a judge. You'll probably be one of those 10%. So what you want to try to do is get in front of a judge as fast as possible, and also if you're being attacked in this manner, then ask your attorney this question, what do I need to do so that if we are in front of a judge, I can walk away with the custody that I want or to live in situation that want, that I want and the support that I want?'Cause one of the things that's, uh, to keep in mind about divorce is your ex. He or she can ask for whatever they want. There's no crime, there's no legal parameters that restrict what somebody can ask for. But the good thing about divorce is pretty darn formulaic. Custody, support, uh, alimony, uh, custodial support is based on three primary factors. How long were you married? What you made when you were married? And how many kids you had. If it's longer than 10 years in most states, then it does factor into what the assets were coming into the marriage. But again, it's formulaic. Okay, so those numbers dictate a certain amount of support. And if your spouse is asking for a number far greater than that, then the faster you get in front of a judge who will look at these numbers and say, well, you know, I get this, I understand you're asking for that, but based on what your spouse made, based on your kids, based on the length of your marriage, this is what our state dictates is reasonable, and they'll be directed. So, if you're dealing with a spouse, looks like he or she is out to hurt you and make your life difficult, then probably the faster you get in front of a judge, the better.

Leah:

Well, I have just one final question and maybe Dr. Willow does too, but mine would be I really try to encourage and help couples and individuals who are looking for coupledom to consider that there is a world and a reality that exists where we can be happily ever after even after divorce. And if we can really focus on friendship being like the number one highest form of relationship, then it's also possible that you can go, you can go in separate directions and say thank you for everything you've represented in this chapter of our life. I set you free. And I want to be friendly. I want to be friendly because it's healthy for our hearts and it's healthy if we've got kids and for our friends who are all trying to share us. Um, any advice, final words around that concept?

Andy:

Yes. Buy my book, please. Because that is, uh, two very important chapters. There, um, what you just said, Leah, again, I wish I met you young ladies before I started writing this darn thing. Um, because you, you, you really get it. Um, that is a, such an important point, is what is the relationship, the ideal relationship, to nurture with my former partner, where we couldn't live with. So in this chapter of my book, we deal with the proper boundaries. Okay. Now you're going to have to weigh in when new partners come involved. Oh boy, what you think you might've tried to do changes. And if those new partner that your new partner and your former spouse don't get along, So it's really healthy to have very specific boundaries. You're dealing with logistics. You're dealing with co parenting. You're not having sex. Okay? Um, so that's an example of a boundary. Like, okay, let's say you're divorcing from somebody where you guys had a really vibrant, great sex life. Alright? That's gotta stop.

Leah:

Yeah.

Andy:

That will keep you from moving on, and that's only going to cloud and confuse you, whether you think you can separate from that or not. So, this chapter deals with these boundaries, um, and it's really important that you establish it. You want to be like you're running a business. He or she is your business partner, and the business is raising your kids happy, healthy, and well adjusted, and get them out of the house. That's your job. That's the, that's the goal of the business. All right. And, and it's a business relationship. All right. You're not gonna, you're not, you're not a shoulder to lean on. Um, uh, it doesn't mean you'd be mean, whatever, if the things are happening in his or her life, but you, you've got to recognize that you are, and I would even say you're not friends. All right. You are business partners and your business is raising the kids and getting them out of the If you are friends, I guarantee you, when new partners come in,

Leah:

Yeah, that gets a little sticky. Doesn't it?

Andy:

it's gonna, it's gonna affect your ability to have a new good relationship.

Willow:

Mmm.

Leah:

Yeah. I can see where that goes sideways.

Andy:

Yeah.

Willow:

I could,

Leah:

want to

Willow:

well I, I was just going to say on that, like I could see so many, so many people, especially in my world, being like, No, no, I can maintain a good friendship. I can do this. And yeah, it's just, it does, does affect new relationships sometimes when they come in, but not all the time. Okay, I guess my final, final question for you is like, what, what would you say to people now that you're on the other side of the fence? What would you say to people who are like, Maybe they're just, they haven't even even asked for a divorce yet. They're just sitting steaming in the like, Oh my God, I got this long arduous journey ahead of me to get to the other side of the fence.

Andy:

Alright, I'd say it again, get my book. Uh, one of the things that's different about my book than other divorce books is the very first chapter in the book. Is a look in the mirror chapter for those that have not begun the process to try to assess where the relationship at is. Is my relationship stale? Or is my relationship broken? Okay? A lot of divorces, um, that you might think you're done, it's just stale. Okay? Um, it can be rekindled. And if you've got all this time invested, um, you want to maybe you go and see a therapist for six, seven months before, um, you determine you, you're going to go down that path. Now, statistically, uh, these therapy sessions of damaged couples tends to say salvage about 17 percent of divorces, of marriages. Now, you might look at this and say, that's pretty depressing. But. The, the, the relationships that actually go there are already quite damaged. I look at it as, goodness gracious, one in five are salvaged. Now, I'm going to give you another way to look at that is one thing that, and we, I talk about this in my book, is that one thing we tend to not think about is you're going to have conversations about your marriage, about your divorce with your children when they are adults, and your actions that you're taking now. are going to be so, uh, uh, uh, uh, important and reflected on and discussed and analyzed by your adult children. And think about this for a second. Let's say you're 99 percent certain, I'm done. I'm done. What's the freaking rush? Go and see a therapist for 3, 4, or 5 months. If for no other reason than being able to say to your adult children who are 25 and 26, looking to start their own relationships and find their own partners. You know what? Your mom and I, it really wasn't healthy, but you guys were so important that before we decide to split we invested in therapy. That is so powerful. What you're telling these kids is that our family unit was so important that we were just gonna just throw it off. That there was absolute hundred percent clarity when we separated. Now So, I'm a big believer, Dr. Willow and Leah, that even if you are in, you're 99 percent certain, and you, if you don't have another partner involved, affecting a third party, go see a therapist. If for no other reason than, than, than you are planting the seed for the conversation that you will have with your children when they're adults. And that will be so well received by them, and it's going to give them a better chance to have. A, a, a, a, a, a deep and meaningful relationship of their own, which is what you guys want.

Willow:

Yeah, absolutely. Great advice. Andy Heller. We are fans. Thanks for being on our show. How fun.

Andy:

you. Okay. your relationship is in

Leah:

trouble, get Andy's book.

Willow:

That's right. Get it. I want to read it just for education.

Leah:

yeah,

Andy:

you, Dr. Willow. So yeah, everybody, my book is on Amazon. Just Google Andy Heller, take the high road, it will pop up. Um, if, if I help you put a, put a, put a review there. And like I said, uh, I'll say it again. Look, I did not write this book to make money. Um, I wrote this book as a labor of love because people helped me when I went through my own process. And if some of the stuff that I say today sounds like it's, it's powerful and helpful, I tried to organize 46 different tips and nuggets in 46 chapters just like this. So, I hope my book can help you.

Willow:

So

Leah:

Well, you can find the link to the book in the show notes as usual. And please tell us what you think about this episode. Like where are you at in your own divorce journey? What got triggered or what was brought up for you today as you hear all these options and certainly, uh, comment if you feel like you got some relief and some inspiration and stay tuned, Dr. Willow and I are up with the dish and, uh, See y'all soon. And thank you, Andy. We'll see you on the flip side.

Andy:

Leah, Dr. Willow, thank you for having me as a guest. I enjoyed it.

Willow:

Thank you.

Announcer:

Now, our favorite part, the dish.

Speaker 5:

Man, oh man, divorce is hard and painful, isn't it?

Willow:

I, you know, haven't had a lot of experience with divorce. My parents are still married and I've never really even had a close friend go through a divorce that I've supported along the journey. So, um, yeah, so I felt like I didn't really have a lot to say. I've been certainly through a lot of big breakups myself and have helped a lot of people through those. So that's, uh There's so many more logistics when it comes to divorce. There's so many more pieces that you have to unravel rather than just breaking up.

Leah:

Yeah,

Willow:

I think, I think, you know, his, his advice on if you're the, if you're the check writer to be generous is really, really huge, and even if the other person can't appreciate it in the moment, hopefully someday they can, and whether they express their appreciation to you or not doesn't really matter, but that is taking the high road, and that's the name of his book, Taking the High Road. So I think that, I mean, I think that's, The best thing you can do in any breakup situation is like, look for, like, zoom out, get a higher perspective about what's actually going on here for the other person, and, um, do your best to stay in love. Ask yourself, what would love do?

Speaker 5:

yeah. Yeah, and I think his perspective on like, think about your kids 10, 15, 20 years from now and the questions they're gonna ask you and the example that you can hold just in case they have to, you know, go through this, you know, you'll have better advice for them if you can also take some good advice and do, you know, maybe the hardest thing, um, but maybe the hardest thing is the right thing and you know, I think also it might be hard for a lot of people to see it. This as this isn't happening to you. It's happening for you.

Willow:

Mm hmm.

Speaker 5:

You know, like sometimes though, that can take you out of some suffering. If you can ponder that at times that you may not want the divorce, you may still love your partner, but you can't know yet, how great your life is going to be as a result of this relationship ending. I think in many ways that was my mom's experience,

Willow:

Yeah. Well, I

Speaker 5:

like she ended up achieving, I think a lot more, you know, by the fact that she wasn't with my dad for these last chapters of her life. I think it ended up being better for her. And it worked out that way.

Willow:

Yeah.

Speaker 5:

Yeah, I don't, I don't think it worked out that way for my dad. I

Willow:

was going to say it doesn't always, it's not always the best for, you know, it doesn't always turn out the best, but I think that's the mindset that you have to have going into it. So it's as quickly as you can shift into that mindset of like, okay, for whatever reason, this is happening and, and for, and it's going to be for my benefit in the end. And if you hold that vision and you hold that view rather than, fuck, this is happening, it's ruining my life and I'm never going to get. As good as I have, then you're going to, you know, you really have the choice to, to steer yourself in either one of those directions with your thoughts.

Speaker 5:

what's interesting is I do know a lot of people, personal friends, and maybe even some family members who were the ones to leave. Who 20 years later wish they hadn't.

Willow:

Okay, there you

Speaker 5:

And I've said like, you know, sometimes I wish I would have just stuck through it. I was going through a phase and thought I needed something else. And maybe I did at the time, but where would I be if I had stayed? I might be in a better place today than I am, you know? So I've heard, I have heard that side of the story. Um, the other thing that's interesting, that's kind of fresh in my mind, um, is that process of when I asked him, like, Friendship, right? And he kind of came back with, you know, friendship isn't always actually the right path forward. Oftentimes, it's keep it a business relationship. And mainly, it seemed like he was saying, because when a new partners come online, there can be questions of loyalty. I mean, when I both look at what happened in my parents relationship, and also other friends, and being in a relationship with someone, Who had a very important ex wife, who very much was active in, continued to be very active, continued to be a best friend. There were some hierarchical, I'm not gonna, how do you say that better for me? I'm,

Willow:

Hierarchical.

Leah:

yeah, thank you. Um, positions, right? Now, I knew better to just respect that, to go, she can, she can be the queen. Um, I, I don't, I'm not threatened by this at all, and so therefore she didn't have to be threatened. By me. So we, we weren't positioning mainly because I just respected what a big person she was in his life and that respect ended up coming back and it was all good. Now, not everyone can do that. Um, and when there's kids involved, I've seen so many new partners who are irritated by the ex. Who thinks it's strange that you're still trying to be friends, who really questions the loyalty. So a lot of people don't have that capacity. But sometimes my Pollyanna part of me just wants to go,

Willow:

Oh, let's all

Speaker 5:

Why don't you think about that?

Willow:

know, I know. I love that mindset too. I'm friends with, not all my exes, but some of them, and we have a great relationship. And, and I have seen new people come in and not been able to handle our friendship and relationship. And um, so that does happen. But then I just feel like, well then that's not the right person. You know, if somebody new is coming in and you have a good relationship with your ex who you co parent with and had a whole life with

Leah:

Yeah. you

Willow:

person comes in and can't, yeah, and can't handle it, in my opinion, then like, they're not the right

Leah:

for high regard. Yeah. wow, you really managed something that could have been really hard and, and you did that for your kids and, and you're choosing to see the best in your ex

Willow:

One of the things we didn't talk about was regret. And, um, you know, I think that there's so much that's such a big part of the, like grieving process and loss process is like, you know, grief, grief is really this bigger umbrella emotion that's filled with all kinds of things like anger, frustration, regret, sadness. And so I think, um, one of the things that I have learned just through my own breakups is like, Nothing, you cannot miss what is yours to have, like, whatever it is that is for you will find you. And so if you can keep that perspective, then the regret doesn't have a lot of room to breathe. So

Leah:

said, yeah, I think that's a really interesting thing, a perspective to take to heart, for sure. You know, one thing I'm really grateful to my mom but I think was hard for her future partners was my mom always invited my dad to Christmas morning and to birthday parties. And I have to say, it was really nice having my Dad there. It really felt like he completed something. Yes, it was at times awkward. But that was showed so much graciousness on my mom's part. And my dad was really grateful. You know, like he really, he, he demonstrated that gratefulness. He got out of there when it felt appropriate, you know, at some point that stopped because a new husband thought it was too weird and we all adjusted. But I have to say. Thanks, mom. You know, I really, I really am grateful to my parents, even though I was seeing the things and all the pain and all the devastation and all the confusion and all that stuff that was just part of the journey, they really did try to put us first and I think they did a pretty decent job. So there can be, yeah, there can be love even after love changes.

Willow:

That's right. Love lasts a lifetime. Keeps going on and on. It just changes form.

Speaker 5:

Yeah. All right. Thanks, y'all. Let us know if you want more divorce experts with more perspectives. We're happy to seek them out. And if you've got a guest suggestion, let us know. Love, love, love.

Announcer:

Thanks for tuning in. This episode was hosted by Tantric Sex Master Coach and Positive Psychology Facilitator, Leah Piper, as well as by Chinese and Functional Medicine Doctor and Taoist Sexology Teacher, Dr. Willow Brown. Don't forget, your comments, likes, subscribes, and suggestions matter. Let's realize this new world together.

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Dr. Willow Brown

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Leah Piper

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Andy Heller

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