The Sex Reimagined Podcast

Leah & Dr. Willow: Infidelity Unveiled - Can Your Relationship Survive Cheating? | #98

• Leah Piper, Dr. Willow Brown • Season 2 • Episode 98

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In this controversial and honest episode, hosts, Dr. Willow Brown and Leah Piper explore the complex world of infidelity and how couples can navigate its treacherous waters. Whether you're dealing with infidelity or want to affair-proof your relationship, this episode offers practical tools and compassionate guidance. 

EPISODE HIGHLIGHTS

  • Understand the "4 Obstacles that Generate Eros" and how to use them ethically in your relationship
  • Learn creative ways to keep the spark alive in long-term partnerships
  • Discover the unexpected link between jealousy, secrecy, and sexual tension
  • Explore cultural perspectives on affairs and open relationships
  • Find out how to rebuild trust and intimacy after infidelity

EPISODE LINKS *some links below may also be affiliate links


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Leah:

Welcome, welcome, welcome. It's the Sex Reimagined Podcast. We are your hosts, Dr. Willow Brown and Leah Piper. This is the time of the month where you get us all to yourself. And one of the things we have been thinking about, and actually this came from a suggestion, this topic from a friend, a student, a dearie of the dears, um, said, you guys should talk about infidelity. And I said, Willow. Let's talk about infidelity.

Willow:

I feel like we have talked about it in little snippets in other episodes, but not a whole episode fully focused on infidelity. Why do people cheat on each other? Why is betrayal such a thing? What's erotic about it? And what sort of, um, you know, what's erotic about it? ways of patterning do people play out when they're doing that activity. So, um, so here we are today talking about infidelity, y'all. If you have been in the receiving seat of betrayal, you know how painful it can be. And if you've been in the, the betrayal seat of betrayal, you know how, um, painful it can be. Exactly. Yeah. Both ways. So.

Leah:

Yeah.

Willow:

what's so interesting, too, is nowadays we, there's so much opportunity and so many people are like opening up their relationships and, you know, it's like, okay, I have feelings for this other person. Doesn't mean I don't love you. And doesn't mean I want to just, you know, drop this relationship. A lot of people are tied together with it. Children with mortgages with a lot going on and it's just it's too much energy to actually unravel all of that And they still love that person, but I think over time as you know people Are in relationships for long periods of times things wane and that's very natural, right? And so that's one of the reasons that people go toward infidelity is to just reawaken something inside of themselves But I think there's a lot of opportunity for other ways.

Leah:

It's such aom cplex topic and Willow and I are not experts in infidelity or treating, you know, people who are experiencing infidelity. So we're, this is just us wrapping on a topic that's juicy, that's important, that's interesting, that's painful, that's also very revealing about the new chapters that we find ourselves in in life and why we find ourselves in them. So this is a topic we want to dish on. And it's also an invitation if you are an infidelity expert, If you're an infidelity expert, if you're a couples therapist, if a lot of the people you're coming to are coming to you because of cheating, we want to know, how are you helping couples get to the other side? What are your suggestions? If you're an infidelity expert, we want you on the show, so, um, please tune in, tell us what we're getting wrong, tell us what we're getting right, let us know your opinions, and also, if you've been cheated on and this has been a really core wound of yours in your life, please listen gently. And treat yourself with a lot of love and a lot of care. Um, we are not making any grand gestures. We're just exploring something. And we may make some mistakes as we discuss this conversation. And we may really learn, we might actually change each other's mind. You might change our mind. So, uh, this is just our chance to speak openly about some ideas.

Announcer:

Welcome to the Sex Reimagined Podcast, where sex is shame free and pleasure forward. Let's get into the show.

Leah:

Where do you want to begin?

Willow:

I think, like, let's start with the different reasons that people do, um, you know, cheat on their partners instead of being open and expressive and honest about it. I think one of the big reasons is fear, like, wow, I, I, I want to go have this other experience and I am really afraid that if I tell my partner about it, they're going to ixnay, they're going to shut that down, it's not going to be okay with them, and I really want to, you You know, sometimes, that little saying, like ask for forgiveness rather than ask for permission can work in some instances. I feel like, um, more, um, more in the past it was like if you cheated, it was over and it was out. Nowadays, it's a little different, there's more opportunity to hash it out, to talk about it, to work through it. What does this mean for you? Why did you cheat? Figuring it out. Why did your partner cheat or why did you cheat? And is there something to heal and mend within the relationship? So

Leah:

reasons, right? Like sometimes people will cheat and have a wandering eye because they don't live in a sexually abundant relationship. Right, it's like they feel like they're starving half the time and they're just craving that intimacy and those orgasms and that feeling of being in connection with others and they're not getting that a lot at home and it's been a friction laden topic where one person maybe wants sex more than the other person. And one person wants more connection and intimacy than the other person. They could just have a real mismatch in their desires. And so there's just a deep frustration. And one person feels like they've gotten shut down a bunch. So they just start to look to get those needs met elsewhere. Because they feel like they can't get it at home. They've been told no so many times that it doesn't feel like

Willow:

They've been

Leah:

a real

Willow:

so many times. Yeah, that feeling of rejection can really have you turning in some other, uh, direction. And I think, you know, not to go too far down the rabbit hole on that piece, but there's, there's oftentimes, um, a disparity not only in sexual desire and drive, but in, in people's sexual styles, if we look at the sexual blueprints. They might just not be, you know, uh, uh, matching up or not knowing how to match up in their erotic styles. So,

Leah:

I want to be careful here with this particular element because I think some people could hear, especially the person who got cheated on, like, oh, so my partner stepped out on me and they didn't have integrity and they cheated and now you're talking like it's my fault. Because I wasn't putting out, right? And so I think sometimes there can be this warped, like, like, weird way that we blame each other regarding all of this. And it's like, do I think that that one partner who, who wasn't as sexual as their partner, do they deserve to be cheated on? Absolutely not. Um, and I also think a lot of people cheat and they're stuck in this dynamic, but they haven't, they haven't looked into therapy. They haven't taken responsibility for their own actions and their desires and being communicative about that. They haven't looked at alternative ways of, of creating the sex that their partner wants. They're just stuck with wanting the sex that they want, period, the end. And so then they just go outside the relationship instead of really putting effort in to solving the problem within their own dynamic. I think that's a result, and I don't think anyone's to blame here. I think if there was something to blame, it's our conditioning. And, and we have all sorts of subconscious things that sort of inform our motivations. Sometimes if you grew up in a family where there was a parent that was, like, everyone knew they cheated all the time. I've watched how that pattern in a family can create children who are either, like, super serial monogamous and they, rebel against that parent that was the cheater. And then other kids in the same family will become the cheater themselves. It's like they got modeled for them, this is what relationship and intimacy looks like. And so there's almost like this compelling thing that motivates them, you know, going behind their partner's back, I guess. It's kind of interesting how that dynamic people either adopted or they rebel against it.

Willow:

Yeah, you know, I think there's another reason why people do it is there's an eros to it. We've been studying, Leah and I've been diving deeper into the sub dom world and how when there's an element of no, like that's a no no, that's not okay, that's against the rules. Somehow it's super hot and sexy and spicy all of a sudden. So, you know when, when you're in a marriage or you're in a long-term relationship and it's like, oh, you're, you've, you've, you've been having sex with that person for a while. Maybe you have good sex with that person. Maybe, you know, the sex isn't even a problem, but there's still this like, ooh, it's, there's this, uh, you know, no element that makes it a lot hotter. So

Leah:

right, breaking rules is

Willow:

consider

Leah:

Breaking rules, man! It's like there's a lot of eros in that. Longing. There's a lot of eros in longing. There's a lot of eros in, uh, power dynamics. There's a lot of eros or sexual tension in ambiguity. Those are the big four cornerstones. Definitely read a book if you love to read. This is a very interesting topic. It's called The Erotic Mind. And it really talks about when people study peak sexual experiences or they study people's fantasies that get them turned on, especially masturbation, what do they fantasize about, watching porn, what's the porn they look at, there's usually one or all four, a certain number of these four dynamics. I'll say them again. Ambiguity. longing, power dynamics, and breaking the rules. Um, I believe Jacob Morin, the author of the book, I believe he refers to like breaking the rules. He calls it prohib um, oh prohibiting, no that's not it, violating prohibitions. That's the term. Very fancy term for just breaking the rules. Um, and so that doesn't have necessarily anything to do with your partner. You know, I think when we are in really secure relationships that are going really well, that's kind of like, um, it's, uh,

Willow:

It gets a little bit

Leah:

it's an anti aphrodisiac. Security is an anti

Willow:

Ambiguity. Ambiguity rises up, right? There's like this well, yeah. I mean, they're there.

Leah:

take it or leave it. I'd rather read a book or eat a sandwich or, you know, do it. Sometimes we don't prioritize our erotic connection because sometimes we don't know how to resource it. Because we're so secure and we're used to each other and we see each other day in and day out. And that's a stall for a lot of long term relationships. Even if you're not so long term. Even if you've been dating for a year.

Willow:

Exactly. And I think that's why it's so powerful to learn how to bring these no elements in and to, to learn how to kind of play with the different roles of, um, one person doming over the other. You know, like what, what is it a turn on for you? Do you, do you like to be tossed around or do you like to toss the other around? You know, what kind of, just playing with things that you, you haven't played with before. And even like role playing can be fun. You know, we had a, we had someone on the show. She was lovely. I can't remember her name right now. Our guest and her and her husband with, um, I think they had like a two month old, like a baby, an infant still, and they would go out to the bars and they would pretend like they hadn't, they didn't know each other.

Leah:

Rockind, um,

Willow:

yes.

Leah:

I'll look her, I'll look it up. Yeah, yeah, uh, um, Karin? Was it

Willow:

Carin. That was it. Carin Rockind. Yeah. We'll put her episode in the show notes. Yeah. It was just so cool. You know, there's just so many ways to get creative with your long term partner. Um, so some of these reasons that we go outside of the, the marriage or the relationship to cheat, um, could potentially be, you know,

Leah:

Avoided. If you knew that here are these obstacles that you can purposely put into your relationship with consciousness, communication, boundaries, and creativity that allow you to play with these dynamics, without having to go outside of your marriage. And I think that creates a lot of freedom and a lot of like interesting, great conversations and things that really open you with your partner. Um, being in a long term relationship with my husband, these are things that are really driving so much connection between us. And these are ideas that him and I may never play out. But the fact that we're talking about it is bringing us closer and it's making us feel juicier. And so there's lots of places that we're noticing creating color in our landscape of sexuality because we don't want to lose the security. Like, I'm really attached to the security. That's why people get into long term relationships is because we all want security. It feels good. It feels safe. It's a place where you can cultivate a lot of trust with one person. And you don't want to go fucking that shit up if you can help it. Now sometimes we can't help it but that's usually because we're asleep and our subconscious is ruling us. And I want to dive in deeper into this topic to give some suggestions for those people who are getting bored in their relationships and are finding their eyes wandering. So you can kind of maybe turn towards back to your partner. But before we do that I want to mention, um, you just mentioned her name, that therapist, no, famous therapist, she's got a

Willow:

Oh, Esther

Leah:

Esther Perel, I really, when she, she talks about in a couple of her TED Talks that one of the things that drives infidelity is the person who's cheating gets reminded that there's a part of themselves that they've lost touch with and so this extramarital affair is so compelling because you're finding a part of yourself you thought you lost and that is such a rich discovery and it doesn't have anything to do with your partner so even though we opened up sort of this conversation with you could be in a relationship with someone who's not meeting your sexual needs and it's driving you to go outside your relationship, Oftentimes, in fact, I think the percentage is higher for those who do cheat it's not that their partner is not satisfying them at all. In fact, their cheating has nothing to do with the quality of their current committed relationship, and I found that just, um, so revealing and so freeing

Willow:

like a relief.

Leah:

the person who gets cheated on. It's such an attack so much of the time to their sense of self worth, their sense of lovability, their faith in trust, their faith in themselves, their faith in their partner. It can be such a disruption, and we see so many marriages end. So many people break up, married or not, due to the result of infidelity. And sometimes I think people just make a mistake. And they jump the gun too much. It's like, You cheated on me once, you're out. I don't really prescribe to that theory. But if you're with someone who is a serial cheater, then, and it's just killing you, no, you shouldn't stay. What are your thoughts on that?

Willow:

Well, I mean, another esterpirelism is, you know, you're going to have many multiple relationships in your life. Whether or not they're with the same person is a whole other story. So, you know, this is, again, another reason why playing with different roles, possibly even bringing in a third into your, into your, um, sexual play with your partner can, can sort of, um, you know, help you dissolve that desire. But yeah, as far as, you know, I think it's super personal if, if you're somebody who's like, if you cheat on me, it's over, we're cut, we're done. It's no more. I mean, I think that usually has to do with your conditioning and, and also, you know, what relationship you grew up with. Your very first intimate relationship is your parents relationship, as you were speaking to earlier, Leah. So if that's what you were modelled and if that's what you saw, then that might feel kind of normal. So, you know, a lot of people who um

Leah:

it could be the most healing choice for you. Like, that could also have a tremendous amount of meaning for you is to not put up with behavior that goes against your values and if cheating is a big one because of the wounding you grew up with, it would be intolerable to your nervous system to stay with someone it's like, one strike and you're out. If that's important to your health and well being, my God, follow that.

Willow:

Yeah, I mean, my, my general, like, view, personal view on, on intimacy and relationships is, we're not really supposed to get everything from one

Leah:

Right.

Willow:

And, um, and we've, I hope, it seems like we're moving away from that paradigm more and more. Um, and I think even sexually, like, trying to get every need met from, from one person on a sexual level can just, um, cause some blockage within the relationship. So, you know, as you were talking about, you know, just sharing fantasies. I think that people get afraid to share their fantasies because that would mean that they would have to play them out. But the reality is that, you know, the most important sexual organ in your body is your brain, right? And so, we've got to stimulate that brain and getting into some kinki stuff can be really unusual, unfamiliar, and that unusual, unfamiliar is what's erotic and hot. Think about like the very first time you got together with your partner. You'd never seen their body before, you'd never kissed them before, there was a lot of eros. So there's a lot of, you know, desire and sexual tension in something that's new and something that's out there unfamiliar. And so when you bring in sexual fantasies that you've never had before that you know are really um, you know taboo or or or not um, socially acceptable then it can bring forth a lot of super hotness. And I think you know listening to eroticism, listening to books or um, there's a lot of great podcasts. We had a woman who writes, who does these podcasts. Do you remember her name?

Leah:

Um, Laila Love or Lala. Lala. Yes. We'll

Willow:

in the show notes too. So, and then there's also Dipsea, which is a great little app that has these fun little, you know, quick little stories that are very erotic and to listen to those together, you know, just to, to drop into some eroticism together can really start to jog your brain and get your, your mind going in different directions. And even if you're like, Oh my God, that, you know, anal sex that they had in that erotic story that we listened to was so hot. I don't want to do that, but I think it was hot. You know, then that can just get your, your partner's mind going like, wow, you thought that was hot? Well, that's different. That's new. I didn't know that that turned you

Leah:

too. Like, ew, anal, you know, you could have like a total negative visceral reaction, like, gross. But then you read something that someone wrote really well, and it can open your eyes going, oh, well, that didn't sound so bad. So I think it can be interesting to have your mind open, to have someone who's good at writing or telling a story Describe something that was really erotic and something that might have been taboo or scary to you but, the way they wrote it opened you that doesn't mean you want to have that type of sex But it could just bring you back into a sensual state within your own system that you can then leverage and enjoy I know that erotic has really done that for me. Um As I've said a thousand times on this show, I won't keep repeating myself. But, but you know what that points to and I think this is really important. is even if we go through, because if we're going to be in a long term relationship that's monogamous and we ebb and flow, right, we're changing periodically. Each partner is going to go through a different chapter in their life and when we're different ages we go into different chapters. We, our body changes, our desires changes, our thoughts and the things that interest us change. Sometimes we're going through really hard things in life and so like we go through a, um, uh, a resting stage with sex where sex is just not on, it's not important. There are other things like taking care of an ailing parent or dealing with a crisis or, you know, helping your kid move across the country that take sex off the table in your partnership. And if that is stressing you out, then make space for yourself to be able to continue to explore your own sexuality if your partner's in a resting stage. That doesn't mean you have to cheat. And this is where another caveat that I want to bring up because we're not talking about addiction on this episode. We're not talking about sex addiction and people who are, um, habitually cheating because they are a sex addict. Nor are we talking about porn addiction where people are, um, obsessively masturbating all day long and it's creating dysfunction in their relationship. Let's take that off the table for this conversation. So we're, we're really moving in a place where we've got people who need to have different outlets. If they don't want to cheat and sometimes self pleasuring is a very vital part of that outlet. We've got to make space for our partner to explore and cultivate, in my opinion, one's sexuality, one's rich landscape for understanding desire and being open to pleasure in their system. And I think we can safely do that without necessarily cheating. Which I think is really important to take the pressure off of a partner who's in a resting stage frankly and where sex is just, it's not appropriate for whatever chapter they're in in their life and we have to always be collaborating in partnership around our sex life and sometimes that means I want to cultivate the kind of sex that really turns on my partner. I want to be curious about that. I want to be open to that. I want to try these things on. I want to find ways that I can make it work for me so I can give my partner the kind of sex they want and vice versa. Sometimes I need my partner to stretch themselves and to play with how do I want to have sex and what does that mean to me and what does that mean to me right now in my life in this chapter. You know it was different in my 30s than it is in my 40s and certainly different in my 20s and so what is the kind of sex you want to have? And then negotiating, how can I have that? And sometimes that means you have it with yourself.

Willow:

Mm hmm. Mm hmm. Or you have an agreement to go outside of the union, and you have an agreement that you are not um, just enduring with your partner, but in full consent to. So I think that's a really important thing. And, and so I have a question for you, Leah, around, um, like if, if somebody has been in a partnership for a long time, there's, there's a marriage, they've got the house, they've got the kids, they're fully kind of enmeshed and entangled with one another, and they're, they're just thinking about infidelity, they're wondering about it, they're, they're curious about it. You know, there's somebody who's you know, picking their interest in, in the, in the

Leah:

Right, they got a crush. Yeah.

Willow:

Yeah. And so, um, like, you know, my, my take is like, let's not blow the whole thing up. You have a lot going on. This person's always gonna be your family, right? So like, what do you actually want to, how do you wanna handle that? How to handle this with integrity? So I'm curious your thoughts, like what would you advise somebody who's in that situation?

Leah:

First, I think it can be really tricky. So my first piece of advice is go speak with a polyamory, um,

Willow:

Coach or

Leah:

or therapist, a polyamory friendly coach or therapist who has some experience helping couples navigate this. I feel like a big mistake that I see couples making is their relationship is in trouble. And so let's just go have an open relationship that'll solve everything. And it never does.

Willow:

make it go down fast like a

Leah:

I do not advise couples start to play with an open relationship unless they're in a really good

Willow:

they're solid.

Leah:

Like, you want to be on

Willow:

a lot of trust.

Leah:

solid footing before you consider opening up your relationship. Because opening a relationship does not solve relationship problems. Um, I was just talking to a girlfriend who, like, was dating this guy for, like, two days. It was a very short relationship. Um, Romance of like considering, right? Like I think they met on Bumble or something and he was intriguing but she started getting warning bells when he was talking about how It took him forever, but he finally convinced his girlfriend to swing with him and like a swingers thing And she really resisted it. She said no so many times So he just wasn't gonna say no, he wasn't gonna hear no for an answer He just beat her down until she finally said yes, and she hated it and didn't want to do it

Willow:

not real consent.

Leah:

that's not real consent and they and she ended up leaving him. You know, and so it's like, you shouldn't, it's wonderful to have open conversations where you're turning towards each other. And you're, and you're actually deepening your intimacy because you're talking about things that kind of scare you. And you're worried about scaring your partner, but you're having those courageous conversations anyways. I think it's in those conversations where it's actually bringing you closer together, even though it's kind of scary and risky, that make you a good candidate. for considering some, like, little baby stages, baby steps, and just seeing if you guys are cut out for this.

Willow:

Yeah, and the reason it's so important to get objective support, like not, don't try to just figure this stuff out on your own. See a therapist, see a coach who's, who's adept in this area is because, you know, each of you are in different places at different times. One might be feeling a lot more secure in themselves, a lot more confident in themselves, you know, things might be going really well with work and, you know, and now there's this crush and then another person might be feeling more insecure in themselves, maybe they're dealing with aging parents, maybe they're, you know, maybe they're in one of those sexless stages in their life and so there's a lot of opportunity there opportunity there for a feeling of abandonment to occur. So that's why it's so crucial to get support and to really have somebody who you can bounce things off of and somebody who you can who can kind of watch both of you and see where both of you are at. So So that you can come together on the same page and actually avoid hurting each other. Like you've, you've chosen to be with this person for some reason. There is love there. There is care there. So let's try not to hurt each other.

Leah:

Yeah, and I think having somebody there to help you create, as a couple, the boundaries and the agreements. That, um, that feel important to you in order to have a positive experience. And then also that therapist is there to help you change those agreements and to fine tune them as things get a little sticky. I think having an objective person who will help you find what's right for the two of you. Because I think the other mistake people make is they think like, okay, it's a one size fits all. We're going to do this the way our friends, um, Mary and Sarah do it, or we're going to do this the way Jackie and Joseph do it, because this is what works for them. That's wonderful to get that kind of information, but you need to actually, Create and curate what's right for the two of you and also make space and have flexibility for things needing to be tweaked here and there.

Willow:

Yeah, because they're going to shift and change as you shift and change. Like, imagine that you're going through an initiate, an initiation in your relationship. This is like Esther Perl's thing, like, are you going to have a new relationship with the same person? Okay, well then you're going to go through some kind of initiation portal. So go into that initiation portal with awareness, with consciousness, with love, and with integrity. Don't do to others what you wouldn't want them to do to you.

Leah:

And sometimes that integrity means, I don't want to hear everything. Some people think that like, in order to do polyamory well, you need to have radical honesty. I actually think

Willow:

Not true.

Leah:

would be a mistake for my relationship. Like, I don't, I don't need to be thrown into chaos because I hear every little detail of your experience. I want to know. What is like, how is this experience impacting you the most?

Willow:

Yeah, and what are you bringing to our relationship

Leah:

are you home?

Willow:

How is it transforming you, and how does that inform us?

Leah:

And then, and then for me to be able to have a really great time supporting that. And now there's other types of, you know, affairs, um, other schools of thoughts. I've always had this, and I could just be making this shit up, y'all. I don't even know if this is even in fact, I haven't done any research to find out what are the statistics here, but I have this fantasy that people in Europe have these affairs. But these affairs do not blow up their lives. These affairs are, um, they're, it's very discreet. Both people know that their partner has probably had an affair or two. They, they don't, it's like, okay, don't see, don't tell, don't put it in front of my face, do not expose our children to it, have your little lunch, um, uh, little thing and keep it out of the family and don't get emotional. You know, go have some fun, but you know where home is. And I don't know why I think that this is like socially acceptable in Europe.

Willow:

You're right. I think it is more, yeah, I think you're right. I think it's more acceptable. I think there's a rigidity in the, uh, American culture around, uh, sexuality. I think there's a lot more freedom in European culture and, um,

Leah:

sure there's still a lot of pain in this dynamic all over Europe as a result. People accidentally have second families with people and

Willow:

definitely a, a generalization, a blanket statement that we, we're not basing any fact on.

Leah:

Right, but I do romanticize this idea. I do. I've talked to Matt about it. I'm like, look, if you ever have an affair, I'm not gonna fucking divorce you over it. But don't you emotionally cheat on me.

Willow:

Yeah. Yeah. Well, I think

Leah:

your in love energy over here and if you gotta get your, you know, pickle tickle somewhere else for a half a minute and it's just a small little season and it's not a disrupter. You know, wrap that shit up and, uh, keep me safe. But don't, you don't need to tell me. God, do not have a moment of insanity where you think you need to confess your sins. Like, you're sin free as far as I'm concerned. I mean, I say that now and I really feel that way. I have no idea, though. This has not been tested.

Willow:

Yeah. You

Leah:

But I do sort of have a preference of like, I don't really give a fuck if you cheat, just don't do it very often and don't hurt me with it.

Willow:

Yeah. Yeah. Well, and I think that's, you know, one of the, one of the things that in polyamorous relationships that people are, are sort of up against is it's like, it's the one thing if it's just sex. Okay. That's great. Or you, you like that person, you have a connection. Of course, there's that, but don't fall in love with that person. And so I think that's, you know, part of it

Leah:

Well, the other thing is I don't think people who practice polyamory would call that polyamory. That's just straight up a cheating agreement. Because it seems like to me, at least when I was involved in open relationships, like the thing that made it poly was the fact that there was honesty. We're not withholding this information from our partner. Everyone is operating under transparency. People know about the other person so that, because it's that secret that can be so hurtful. I know that's what drove me into being very curious about open relationships is because of my parents divorce and my dad cheating on my mom and all that chaos. I was like, well, then fuck monogamy. Like, uh, why aren't we all just having open relationships? That way everyone knows about each other and if you're not interested, you bow out. Like, no thanks, peace out, I don't want to be a part of that dynamic. And at least that person's at choice. They're not, they're not suddenly, like, shredded apart when they find out that their partner has been, you know, keeping this big secret from them or in love with somebody else and all the hurt that generates from that. I thought, this is the way to go, just keep it open, people. But then when I discovered being in an open relationship, one that was particularly hurtful for me, it was just so much chaos and so much drama. I got a real bad taste in my mouth regarding polyamory. Now, since we're talking about polyamory, I also want to point out to the listeners that we've had two, at least two experts, Dr. Jolie Hamilton and Jennifer Kaylo, um, a therapist and a coach who've both been on the show where we've talked about polyamory. And we'll put that in the show notes so you can hear some experts because that really helped me actually, Dr. Jolie talking about jealousy. be a big aphrodisiac and why a lot of people are motivated to have open relationships is because there's actually a lot of sexual tension there. It's like there's some juice was like, oh somebody wants my partner Um, look at them flirt with my partner and they'll even kind of stage it. So I think when you're doing this from like a consciousness point of view And you know that like you kind of like the energy that comes from being jealous, or you like the energy from someone chasing your man or your lady or whatever your partner Um, you can capitalize on that and have some really great epic sex when you guys go leave the party and go home for the night To kind of you know,

Willow:

Instead of having an epic fight, have epic sex. You know, even as the, even as the one who's making them jealous, you can go home and have some epic sex with yourself or someone else.

Leah:

Being the other woman or the other man....

Willow:

Yeah, there's something so hot about that. Yeah.

Leah:

Yeah. Isn't that interesting? And that kind of brings us back to the erotic mind book, because one of the things that he talks about is longing, and longing is connected to jealousy, you know, when we long for our partner because their attention is going to somebody else, that stirs up, that can be a big aphrodisiac, too much becomes an anti aphrodisiac,

Willow:

Right, so you gotta, you gotta check yourself. Yeah, like where, and also like create boundaries in the moment with your partner. You know, if there's, if there's, if someone's flirting with your, your hot hubby in the corner and it's like, oh, it's a little bit fun for a while, but man, it's been going on for two hours. Okay, now That's too much. You know, that's your opportunity to speak up and create some boundaries in the moment. Boundaries are one of those things that they're not rules. They shift and change as the moment changes. And that's why, again, it's so important to have somebody helping you both create boundaries as you go through these portals of initiation, which are big portals of change.

Leah:

For someone who really struggled with jealousy during that chaotic relationship I was in, that was so painful. And I used boundaries. To create rules that just created more chaos. So having, asking for all these boundaries actually wasn't very helpful in my dynamic. It actually made my life crazier and I didn't know how much of this was subconsciously motivated, but it was like more boundaries gave me a false feeling of being in more control, of having more control between the relationship that my partner was having with somebody else. And so it was like the more out of control I felt, the more boundaries I tried to like, the more rules I tried to put. On top of both of them, which basically just ended up in them breaking the rules and me being devastated and being always in a state of blame. And then that would, like, reverse itself on me and make me feel like, Oh, I'm the problem. I'm the one that's causing all this chaos. It's very confusing. Um, so I think kind

Willow:

That's I

Leah:

in moment can be a little dangerous.

Willow:

I think, yeah, but I think like what you just said was you took the boundaries and turned them into rules and then the rules got broken, the boundaries got broken. So I think what I'm trying to say is like boundaries are, are shifty little motherfuckers. They change moment to moment, day to day. So it's really just about having like Open, honest communication with, with your partner or partner, whoever's involved is like, okay, well, right now, this feels like it's a, this feels like a request, you know, therefore, I'm just requesting that this does or doesn't happen versus like, if this does or doesn't happen, it's a requirement. And it's really gonna, it's gonna be the undoing of this at some point for me.

Leah:

Well, one of my, and I'm probably going to butcher this, but one of my new favorite quotes is Carl Jung, and he says something like, I'm going to paraphrase, um, the uninvestigated subconscious when we don't make the subconscious conscious, we end up blaming our lives on fate. We end up blaming everything on these things that just happened, not realizing that it's our subconscious that's kind of recreating these patterns in our life of pain. And I was exploring that book, The Erotic Mind, and I was taking a look at these four different obstacles, it helped me really make sense of that partner who I had such a tumultuous long term relationship with, where we were in an open relationship, and it was like, I felt like he kept on doing this behavior and under the guise of open relationship that felt very secretive, it didn't feel honest, there were these small rules that kept on being broken but they added up to something that was really big in my nervous system. And eventually it was just felt so toxic I had to get out and, and I'm watching this person continue to do patterns in this similar way, like it's been going on for years and years and years and years, this is the way he tends to operate his sexuality and what was really healing for me was to realize that there was a subconscious motivation that is creating this type of lifestyle where there's a lot of drama and charge in this. There's always a third woman that's around the corner in order to get all the needs met. It's always kind of chaotic and sometimes it's chill, but most of the time there's chaos surrounding this relationships around this stuff. And it was healing in the way that I realized, oh, there's so much sexual tension in this drama. There's so much payoff. The sexual payoff that's there because of all this drama and all this energy is really a lot of like darker eros at play. It's this sexual tension. It generates so much sexual tension and upset that the payoff must be worth it because he does it in every single relationship. And it made me go, okay, so there's actually some innocence playing out here.

Willow:

Yeah. I think also when, when people are creating that chaos all around them, you have to kind of look at like, well, how, how familiar is chaos to them from their upbringing? You know,

Leah:

we can, we could find it. If we analyzed his upbringing, I can tell you I can find it in three very powerful places.

Willow:

yeah, and so that, yeah. Yeah, it's because that's what that feels like love that feels like home that is familiar so it's like I've got to create that in order to have that sense of connection,

Leah:

right? And to feel powerful, and to feel magnetic, and to feel juicy, and to feel valid, and to feel like all these things are wrapped up because it validates some kind of thing with self. And then, because it's creating so much chaos, you're getting all this attention. Right? You're getting attention from all the players. And so, there can be a lot of relief in like having the attention. Um, it's so fascinating and And so, like, what's the potential there? I don't think this person would be really open to this feedback, but if they were, it would be to explore all this even more consciously.

Willow:

Yeah, there's a lot of potential to play with it

Leah:

where everyone gets to weigh in on their limits? And everyone gets to weigh in on their deepest desires and how they can make this really dynamic. And like, here's the start of the scene, here's the end of the scene. You know, and everyone's got a safe word so they can like, we take a pause if someone says their safe word and we do a check in. We don't just keep on going. Where we're causing scars and wounds and then scar tissue and then mistrust because it can corrode. Something else that we deeply, deeply want and desire. It starts to corrode when we do it unconsciously, that thing about trust and that thing about security. It can take all those things out from beneath us that we say is important. So I think, um, I think these obstacles are really interesting when we look at them and then we get to curate our sexual experiences. So for those of you who are listening, if you're kind of wondering. You know, think about your hottest, most peak sexual experience. What was happening there? What were, what was the storyline? How was, how did it all come about? This crescendo of, of bliss and, and sexual relief. What were the elements? And then also like maybe journal about what are the things that turn you on? I know that for most of my life, what turned me on was very unconscious. Um, it, I couldn't put my thumb on it. Until like really the last, I don't know, handful of years, less than 10 years ago, it's like I finally feel like I've found words to describe what I think opens me. And in that amount of time, the things have changed. And they've, they've had, they've become more dynamic. And now I feel like they're just going to continue to do that. Um, and it's been really through the help of kind of talking about power dynamics. And what does it feel like and what does it look like when I surrender power? Or when I give someone else the authority to play with my body in any way that they want. Given that I've also been able to communicate some limits that I have around that, you know, or someone gives me the authority over their body. And I get to do whatever I want to them within reason, right? That's, you negotiate all of that. Like, that really does, there really is something to power dynamics that are so hot. And then you can layer, if you layer in the fantasies, right? And now you're playing certain roles or you're wearing certain archetypes, that can take a very interesting shape. Even if you're not doing it too literally, you know? But you just even say a phrase, like, bend over the fucking bed.

Willow:

Yeah,

Leah:

Spread your legs right now, you know, and then you slap their ass and, um, you know, doesn't even have to be like a huge fantasy scene, but it could be like three phrases

Willow:

Mm hmm,

Leah:

in the middle of sex

Willow:

Yeah, and I think

Leah:

ups the energy.

Willow:

Yeah, anything that, that you don't usually do is gonna, is gonna up the energy for sure. Anything that's like, kind of a shock to the system is like, gonna be fun and exciting and like, whoa, what was that? Like, where, you know, just wakes you up in the moment and then, um, There's more sensation. There's more energy. You know, I, I, I think more arousal. I think one of the things that happens for so many is like, we just get numb. It's like, oh, we've always done sex this way. We do it this way. This is how we do it, you know? And so you get into these kind of sexual ruts where it's just the norm, then your normal version of sex, whatever that is. And so you get kind of like, you're not awake anymore. And so that's why throwing in, um, some play and some, you know, something a little bit different, spanking or whatever, whatever floats your boat, creams your Twinkie, you know, then do

Leah:

Creams your Twinkie? Oh, that's a cute one. I want to remember that. I want to cream your Twinkie later.

Willow:

I'll cream your Twinkie.

Leah:

Oh, somebody, you should tell someone today. You should let

Willow:

To cream your Twinkie.

Leah:

Oh my god, I

Willow:

Careful who you say

Leah:

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I don't want to say that to anybody. I don't want to get you slapped, you know, but I really just kind of want you to tickle someone's day, let's

Willow:

Oh my goodness.

Leah:

Tickles my day. Um, you

Willow:

Anything else to wrap this conversation?

Leah:

You know, I just want to say like going back to like breaking the rules, one of the stories that comes to mind that was in this book is

Willow:

The erotic

Leah:

Yeah, it's describing like the teenager who's in the driveway with the boyfriend her dad hates who's the musician in the dropout and and she fucks him in the backseat and any minute dad could Walk outside and catch you

Willow:

a little exhibitionist in her. The possibility of being caught.

Leah:

That's right, getting caught. Man, lots of, lots of juice in some of that. And so when we watch ourselves kind of play out interesting behaviors, find out, is there ambiguity? Now here's something about ambiguity, because ambiguity is really, I think, one of the confusing ones. But if you look at the chase, people so get off on the chase, don't they? They love

Willow:

good to be chased. Feels good to chase.

Leah:

part of what's hot about that is the person who's ambiguous, Oh, I could take him, I could leave him. Oh, I'm not sure they're really that interested in him. Or the chaser is like, they're always trying to talk themselves out of wanting someone. You know, it's like you have to get over the ambiguity in order to get that hot experience. So these obstacles, ambiguity, you have to remove the obstacle of ambiguity. You have to remove the obstacle of longing of, you know, which is sort of like, where's the beloved? Everything will be okay once I have the beloved. And so we long and we fantasize and then we get the beloved and we have awesome sex, like the best sex ever. When you meet, you think you've met the one, man, is that a hot three months, six months, a year, if you're lucky. Um. But then they become safe and you have all the security and some of that dappens down, but man that longing is so good. Like I love it when my husband goes on a trip or I go on a trip and I miss him It's always like day seven oh, I.fucking miss you and then I can't wait to be home and you're my one and oh The closeness is so much better You got to kick your partner out of the house sometimes to get that longing back cuz that's a yummy obstacle to overcome in order to capitalize on it

Willow:

So ambiguity, longing. We're recapping these four cornerstones.

Leah:

um, power dynamics, power over, surrender, top, bottom, dom, sub, and then violating prohibitions, meaning breaking

Willow:

breaking the rules.

Leah:

law, public sex.

Willow:

Yeah.

Leah:

I have this, I read this scene in a book once where um, they're gonna have their, public sex was like the thing that they wanted to try. So they're at a baseball game and they're standing up against the railing and they've got a blanket. So she can, she can lift up her, uh, skirt or her dress or whatever, and he can push down his zipper and kind of have his pants half hanging off. But they have a blanket around them, so he can fuck her from behind. I thought, well that's a, that's a pretty good, that's a, if you could get away with it, I think you

Willow:

Try that on for size.

Leah:

concert or something? Joking. It's illegal, people. Don't go, um,

Willow:

Don't tell him we told you

Leah:

yeah, don't go, don't go doing the nasty in public. That'll get you in jail. Just joking. Do it. Just joking. Don't do it.

Willow:

Follow your eros. Follow your eros.

Leah:

the sexual tension. Have a good time. Play it safe. We hope you have some enlightening conversations that don't get too triggered and

Willow:

And let us know what you think, let us know, you know, if you love this episode or hate this episode, and let us know why, because we want to hear from you. And, and, again, if you do have any, um, sexperts that you are aware of, who really are well versed in infidelity and how to handle it, even would be interesting to have, um, somebody who specializes in divorce. So, um, we're open. We like to just explore and have, we're just here to open up the possibilities and reimagine what is, what is possible inside of sexual relationships.

Leah:

I would add to that, like, if you have been in a relationship that had some devastating infidelity, but you stayed together, how did you heal from that chasm, how did you come back? How did you restore trust? How long did it take? What was the process? Who helped you? What books did you read? How did you get resources? Whose advice was the worst advice? Whose advice was the best advice? Really curious if you were able to see a relationship to the other side of infidelity. How did you do it? And um, and also like it'd be great to have someone on who you know, what are the warning signs of someone who is a serial cheater? And how do you deal with that? And if you have been a serial cheater, what have you done about it? Have you been someone who's cheated your whole life and got help so that, um, you could do it differently in the future so it caused you less harm and your partner's less harm? What ended up being the thing that worked?

Willow:

Yeah.

Leah:

Interesting topic. We're only scratching the surface.

Willow:

Yeah, let's keep going with

Leah:

So love, love, love.

Willow:

Talk to you

Announcer:

Thanks for tuning in. This episode was hosted by Tantric Sex Master Coach and Positive Psychology Facilitator, Leah Piper, as well as by Chinese and Functional Medicine Doctor and Taoist Sexology Teacher, Dr. Willow Brown. Don't forget, your comments, likes, subscribes, and suggestions matter. Let's realize this new world together.

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Dr. Willow Brown

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Leah Piper

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