The Sex Reimagined Podcast

Dr. Joli Hamilton: 20% Have Tried Non-Monogamy - The Surprising Stories Behind the Rise of Open Relationships | #82

• Leah Piper, Dr. Willow Brown, Dr. Joli Hamilton • Season 2 • Episode 82

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If you've ever been curious about consensual non-monogamy but worry about getting caught in the clutches of the green-eyed monster, this episode is for you! Join Dr. Joli Hamilton, a brilliant research psychologist as she shares her wisdom on navigating the complexities of open relationships with presence, care, and even a dash of erotic intrigue. Whether you're a seasoned polyamorist, a curious monogamist, or somewhere delightfully in between, Dr. Hamilton's insights will help you create relationships that are rooted in radical honesty, secure attachment, and conscious care. Ready to say goodbye to default relating and hello to more expansive love? Dive in, soak up the wisdom, and let us know your biggest "aha!" moments in the comments. Don't forget to subscribe so you never miss a delicious episode!

IN THIS JUICY CONVERSATION YOU'LL DISCOVER: 

  • The critical difference between jealousy and envy (and why it matters!)
  • How to alchemize jealousy into deeper intimacy and even erotic fuel
  • The secret to discerning between instinctive jealousy and actual threats
  • The essential foundations you need before venturing into the wilds of ethical non-monogamy
  • Surprising truths about parenting with multiple partners (and the unexpected effects on the kids)
  • Why 1 in 5 people have dabbled in non-monogamy, and how to approach it with eyes wide open


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Leah:

Well, whether you are a first time listener or you are a repeat superfan, welcome to the Sex Reimagined Podcast. I'm Leah Piper. You're a Tantra expert and I'm with

Willow:

Dr. Willow Brown, Taoist expert here. And today we had Dr. Joli Hamilton. So Dr. Joli Hamilton is the relationship coach for couples who color outside the lines. She's a research psychologist, TEDx speaker, Joli also co hosts the Playing with Fire podcast with her anchor partner, Ken. Joli's been featured in the New York Times, Vogue, and NPR.

Leah:

Yeah, she is a delight! Um, really, her specialty is around jealousy and non monogamy, and she's done a lot of studies, um, in particular with jealousy. We really talk quite a bit about non monogamy, and we can't wait to have her back, you guys. So, she's great! You know what to do!

Willow:

Turn in, turn on, and fall in love with Dr. Joli Hamilton.

Announcer:

Welcome to the Sex Reimagined Podcast, where sex is shame free and pleasure forward. Let's get into the show.

Leah:

Well, this is the episode for you if you struggle with jealousy like so many of us have.

Willow:

Oh, such a painful emotion. Nobody likes to be in jealousy. And one of the things that can really, um, play a big role is if you're doing a non monogamous relationship or a polyamorous relationship. So we've got expert here, Joli Hamilton, to guide us in how to overcome all this. Ah, let's

Leah:

us out of hell, Joli. out of jealousy hell.

Joli:

Oh, what if I say that I actually, I actually have learned how to enjoy it.

Leah:

Oh, even better. Okay, let's kink out on jealousy. I

Joli:

grant you, it can be hell. And sometimes people treat it like hell, and sometimes people do hellish things. So we shouldn't overlook the fact that jealousy can beget violence and all sorts of trouble. But, I mean, it can also be really erotic. And arousing. So,

Leah:

that perspective.

Willow:

was, uh, yeah, I loved it when my partner at one point was like, I have jealousy about these guys. I'm like, you do? Wow, that makes me feel so special. It's nice when somebody else feels it toward you. It's not so nice when you're sitting and seething in

Joli:

mm,

Leah:

Or, or sitting in it and, and either shaming yourself or shaming someone else over it. Because I think people think that jealousy is something that can be helped. When it can oftentimes just take over your nervous system. Um, so where, where do you want to dive in, Joli? I'm, I'm

Joli:

Oh, let's define jealousy. Let's just be clear, right? Um, so jealousy from my perspective, it's, it's helpful to define jealousy and then separate it from envy too, because we tend to overlap them. So

Willow:

you're differentiating.

Joli:

yeah, jealousy is the protective feeling that arises in me. Um, it's a complex emotion. So depending on which model of jealousy you follow either. It is made of a bunch of other more primal, primal emotions, or it brings, it comes back in a whole bunch of other emotions. But it is this protective feeling that arises when you feel a threat to a valued relationship. That threat, though, doesn't have to be real. It can absolutely be entirely imaginal. And the way you spot jealousy is because it is a triangle. It, it involves two sides. I, myself, as the jealous one, my beloved, my valued other, and then this perceived interrupter. So I know I'm spotting jealousy when I can see that triangle. There might be multiple triangles going on at any one time as well, but if I can spot the triangle, we got jealousy going on. And a lot of us don't want to admit to jealousy, so we might be saying, I'm not jealous while still literally describing that threatened feeling. So let's just name it. And then Let's sort it out from envy, because envy is about wanting to be what someone else is or have what they have. It's a feeling of longing, and it's much more about, um, this desire to change myself or have something someone has. And this is, from a Jungian perspective, I was trained in Jungian psychology, it's a wound to the self. Whereas jealousy is a relational wound. So they're very different, and I treat them in different ways. They can show up at the same time, because I can also be envious of this person that I perceive as interrupting my relationship. it's kind of a big glob.

Willow:

I mean, I like that distinction though, like the triangle of jealousy. I think that's really helpful. And then envy could just be with one other person or multiple people, but, um, but it's more of a thing of wanting what they have. I always like to think of envy and jealousy both as like a golden arrow pointing to the thing that you want, you know? It's like, let's just, what's underneath all of it is a desire that you have. And so if you can pour your energy and attention into creating that desire for yourself and your own life rather than leaking it all over the scenario, then you're much more likely to overcome that jealousy faster by bringing that into your own reality.

Joli:

Well, and if you imagine it like it's motivating and, and when it comes to envy, a lot of people that I speak with when I do, um, research studies, I, I'm a qualitative researcher, so I'll ask people about their jealousy and their envy, and a lot of times they'll describe some motivation. In their envy, they're like, Oh, you know, my best friend got a promotion. I all of a sudden was putting more effort in. Um, somebody just finished a marathon and I'm like, Oh, I wonder if I could do that. Right. There can be this motivating feature, but when it comes to jealousy, that golden arrow, we often, if we are, Caught much the way Hera was in Greek mythology. The golden arrow should have been pointing to her partner, right? And instead she would always point it at the third, at the interrupter. And she would destroy them, right? And then turn them into cows, um, flames, all sorts of bad stuff. So the, the risk is in jealousy that I turn my attention instead of to, to this relational connection that I want to maybe shore up or make clear or deal with my feelings about. If I displace all of that energy onto this perceived interrupter, I may actually miss the whole point, the whole reason the jealousy was there in the first place.

Leah:

so missed opportunity, yeah.

Willow:

So in that, in that scenario then you're saying, um, point, point the attention toward the, the partner Right. Toward

Joli:

Right? I mean,

Willow:

more attention from

Joli:

you want more attention, maybe you need clearer agreements, maybe you need assurances, maybe you don't even have agreements, or maybe, or, and this is a very real thing, we live in an Instagram world, right? Maybe we're imagining this, and if you're imagining a, an interrupter, that's still, I mean, you're, as far as how your brain works, it's still very real, right? Like it's still happening in your body, your nervous system is still going to get dysregulated. And so turning my attention to what, where, where would I turn that attention to? If I turn it back to my relationship, I, if I turn that attention to my partner and I ask them to engage with me and say, I wanna take ownership over this jealousy, it's mine. It's, it's, it's my experience. I'm, I'm having this emotional experience and I would like your support in this. I would like to feel like you are there for me while I figure out what to do with it. So rather than blaming and asking them to fix it for you, you ask them to engage with you in it.

Willow:

Well, okay, I love that, and I've definitely used that in relationships. However, what if somebody's more in this, like, we're just getting into this relationship, there's, you know, we're dancing in the poly or the non monogamous kind of world, and, um, and the other person, and you're like, okay, I actually need more connection with you, and they just go away, they just disappear, they go toward the other.

Joli:

Yeah.

Willow:

what do you do with that? Jealousy,

Joli:

you know, it, jealousy is there, you know, we have studies that show that jealousy can be spotted as early as five and six months old. So we're talking about an incredibly primal experience, right? Designed to connect me to my primary caregiver. And then when we grow up, we transition into connecting to romantic others. So it makes sense that it would, you could have a really huge outsized experience of And sometimes that need will not be met. Sometimes you really can't get that need met. So working with jealousy, the very first thing I ask everyone to do is to come back into ownership of it because we've been presented in the Western canon of literature and film and songs. We've been presented this idea that jealousy is happening to us. It's not just that some situation is inspiring it, but it's being done to us. And so we point our fingers out to the other and we say, you have to fix this. You have to change something you're doing. And yeah, they might just disappear. They might ghost us. They might not have the capacity to meet us there, or they might legitimately not be doing anything outside of our agreements. And I might still be caught in my jealousy. That still happens to me. 15 years of studying this constantly and being non monogamous. I still experience jealousy. I do not have a magic spell that makes it go away. So we have to wrestle with the fact that it's our emotional experience, and some of us are going to experience it with more tenderness or more intensity, and some of us less so, but I find people tend to fall into one of two camps. Either they're like, jealousy's just insecurity. Just, just get over it. It's just, whatever. If you put just in front of it, I'm done. Very sus, or they're like, jealousy is totally overwhelming. I can't, I can't, I can't even put myself in a situation. I would never be non monogamous because the jealousy, those are two extremes. And really the truth of the matter lies in the midst of it all. Like it's, it's an emotional experience. It's natural. It's normal. And it belongs to me. So what I choose to do with it in the case of a partner who turns their back on me.

Willow:

Mm-Hmm.

Joli:

I choose to resource myself more fully with friendships, with other partnerships, and in my care of my nervous system, and actually learn to take care of myself when I'm triggered.

Willow:

Absolutely. I think that, like, coming back to filling yourself, anytime I've gotten into a jealousy loop or an envy loop, I tend to get more into the envy loop than the jealousy one, but certainly have experienced some jealousy in the last couple of years. And, um, you know, it's like, it's always, the biggest golden arrow is like, you need to be with yourself. Like, you need to fill your own cup. You need to do some sex magic practices on your own, and, like, just love up on yourself.

Joli:

right. We can't expect it to go away, um, from the outside any more than we would expect anger to go away just from the outside, or sadness. We've made jealousy into this special thing. It's, and it's not entirely negative. Right. It's not entirely negative. If we think about it as this call back into relating, or a threat detection machine, well, personally, I don't want to solve jealousy because I wouldn't want to be without that threat detection mechanism.

Willow:

kind of like pain, like okay, it's a hot stove, move your hand away from it,

Joli:

Right, right.

Willow:

tell us how to be, the first thing you said was to enjoy it, to find pleasure in it. I want to hear more about that.

Joli:

Yeah. So, you know, in, I do qualitative studies. So I'm in these like in depth interviews with people when I'm talking about jealousy. I'm not just counting, but I'm actually asking them to describe. And something that came up in, um, in my first study that was with, um, non monogamous individuals, 30 percent of those people talked about jealousy. So, actually finding erotic joy, pleasure in their jealousy and not just when someone was jealous of them, but themselves feeling like, ooh, turned on. And this makes sense if you just think about what we turn out for erotic content and what we turn out for romantic stories. Clearly, jealousy Does have some zhuzh for us, right? Like there's a lot of cuckolding porn out there. There is a lot of jealousy inspiring, um, erotic material out there. So one possibility, and this does not work for everyone, but one possibility is to see if the feeling of jealousy in the context of a relationship where I can talk to my partner about wanting assurances and wanting to have clear agreements, can I also allow myself to just. Get off on this jealousy I'm experiencing. Some of us can. And so while that sounds perverse, yeah, humans are pretty perverse. We love kinky stuff.

Willow:

Yeah, we've got a lot of different facets

Joli:

Exactly.

Leah:

I also really like the idea of fetishizing what we're afraid of. So, it's like taking this fear That can be so destabilizing and, and can be so painful and, and facing it and finding ways to, like you said, get off on it so that the, the reward for moving towards it instead of away from it ends with a big O, you know, like, what if that was possible? Now, I have to admit, I do have some skepticism around all of this personally, only because I've had a lot of heartache. When it's bent, when it comes to open relationships and you know, the one thing when you feel like your emotions are out of control and you are in a relational experience where jealousy is, is at the center and people are breaking boundaries, people are here, I'll give you this, I'll give you these assurances, I'll make these agreements and then you, you feel this feeling of like something's not quite right and And you're looking at the two people to go, why do I feel like something's not quite right? And everyone gaslights you to find out later that what you were, your hunch was spot on. Then it's just like, why am I in this drama? Like no monogamy is sounding so much more attractive because there's a feeling of security and safety. However, security and safety can lead to a lot of kind of boring vanilla routine experiences where you're like, I'm desperate for juice. So it's a mix. Right. And so I'm listening and, and kind of going, how can I, could I get off on jealousy? I, right now, I can't imagine it yet, but I want to. So how can someone fetishize jealousy? Where, where do they need to walk themselves through? I'm, I'm imagining it starts mentally, but maybe it doesn't.

Joli:

Well, I actually think, like, starting with the body is perfectly reasonable, but I, there's a precursor to all of this, because we need to name a couple things. First off, if you are in a relationship where you are currently not safe, why, don't fetishize your jealousy. Don't do that. Like, that's not okay. Um, you'd be actively participating in your own abuse at that point. So don't do that. If you are currently in a relationship where your partner is Actively attempting to inspire jealousy. That you are not consenting to. In other words, you have not said, Hey, it's really sexy for me. If you go flirt with that person. Um, no, no, no, no. We're not like that's, that's not the point. So if I'm in a non monogamous relationship that is secure. Then I can fetishize my jealousy because my jealousy is not founded on a realistic threat to my relationship. What it is founded on is my fear, my unconscious stuff, all of my precursors, stuff that goes back to pre verbal times. And that can be really fun to play with and fetishize. And I'm going to go straight to the body. I'm going to masturbate to those fantasies. And we can get all into that. But A lot of people skip the steps where they take care of the actual jealousy itself, walk through naming their jealous, noticing it, noticing where it is in their body, navigating like through the stories they've told themselves about jealousy and what it means, and then actually creating clear agreements with their partners. It's so easy to say, okay, we're, I'm in a good relationship, so I shouldn't have to worry about this or that, or, um, I'm, I'm safe enough. Are you? Do you have clear agreements? Cause when I think about anybody. Non monogamy or monogamy, neither of these protects us from jealousy, and I have the data to prove it. We're not protected from jealousy. So the question for me is, are you in a secure relation, a secure enough relationship for you to play with fetishizing it? And if you are, yum.

Leah:

That's a great distinction. I think that makes so much sense, especially when it's like, all right, you want to get off on jealousy? Let's have, let's, let's go there with ourselves. Let's imagine a hot scenario where we can build something that takes us to an aroused state that leads us somewhere erotically and to go on that journey first within your own being and see, is there a place of heightened arousal that this can expand my awareness too? But here's the thing. I see so many people in, uh, and relationships that are not secure trying to do non monogamy because they're somehow trying to fix the relationship. So you have so many people trying to branch into this because they're really, they're, they're looking for a fix and, uh, and they're not secure to begin with. So if, how can they get secure before they start dabbling in non monogamy?

Joli:

You know, I think that's actually let's, let's back up a step and say first off, not everybody's coupled. Right? So what if you're currently single? Monogamy doesn't offer you any promises of security. So what if I actually have to get secure in my relational practices? Because what if every time I go into a relationship, whether that's with one person or seven people, what if every time I go in, I'm still me? And I still go in and I create the same damn scenario over and over again. So I would say we have to start with like, what are my habits and practices? Because if I am continually finding myself in an insecure position, in a, in a state of being where I can't trust the other. It's probably because I can't trust myself. I probably don't actually have clear agreements. No matter how many partners I have. And so I need to actually address that in myself. I have people who come into my programs who are currently single. They're like, I don't know whether I want open or not, but I know what I've been doing isn't working. And the rules, here's how, this is why I do non monogamy training, it's because the rules of the road for non monogamous, excellent non monogamous relating, those will work in your monogamous relationships. But the rules for monogamy will not work in your non monogamous relationships. So it's like training for like the marathon 5k is easier.

Willow:

Regardless of what direction you

Joli:

Yeah. Yeah.

Willow:

And then also, I'd love to get just a, um, like your definitions between sort of these terminologies, monogamish, non monogamy, polyamory, like what, how do you define each one of these?

Joli:

Yeah, so I will absolutely give examples, Leah. I'm happy to make sure you have them, but, um, yeah, terminology, first off, I know a lot of people are talking about non monogamy right now, and the most important thing is to ask each other, what do you mean, right? If somebody says, I'm monogamish, ask them, so how does that work in your life? Because. My definition is not the arbiter of it all. So whatever I tell you here is what works for me. You've got to ask the person, but broadly, non monogamy is anytime I'm experiencing expansivity beyond the exclusive dyad, right? And monogamy would be an exclusive dyad. But even there, I have to get clear because a lot of people are exclusive in some ways, but not exclusive in every way, and this idea that there's body, telling us exactly what constitutes a proper monogamy. It's just not true. Not in our modern world. And monogamy has looked very different over different classes and social settings over time, over just the last, you know, 200 years. So we really do have to get clear that there isn't. a clear box of like monogamy versus polyamory here. There's lots of different labels that people pick up and use because they feel right to them. Personally, I tend to use the label polyamory a lot because that frisky little conglomeration of Latin and Greek, poly and amory, love, many. I like, it means to me that I am welcoming the possibility Of emotions and love and multiple meaningful relationships. Somebody else might use the phrase open, an open relationship or swinger or polysexual, if their focus is more on physical connection, but they're not really sure whether they're down for multiple emotional connections. We could get into whether it's possible to actually draw that boundary. That's separate conversation, but we, but the, the terminology tends to cat like group us into these loose categories of people who are exploring beyond the exclusive dyad. More for sexual, sensual, physical reasons or more for a, an emotional, communal type motivation. And there's literally every point on, you know, every point in between there too. So it's really important that we, that we make space for everybody to define for themselves what they're doing.

Willow:

I think that's so important, yeah, because you need to have an understanding of what the other person is, why they're doing it, and what it means to them.

Joli:

Yeah. I mean, when I'm out dating, I've been doing this for 15 years. When I'm dating somebody now and they're like, Oh, I'm polyamorous. Tell me more. Most of the time, in the last, say, two years when I've been dating, all but one person I've been on a date with, when they've actually described it to me, I would have used the label monogamish. They are going to be socially monogamous. They're gonna present a monogamous face to the world. They have one person who is that for them. They're going to raise their children with that person. They're going to own property with that person. They're gonna follow all the rules that they think of as The norms for society. And then on the side, they're also open to having this other relationship. And because they're open to some emotional connection, they're like, well, polyamory feels like a better word for me. But for me, I'm thinking of polyamorous as being like. We're going to be able to be out to some degree about that. So we need to get clear on that because that monogamish place can feel a little limiting. I might feel like someone's secret. I might feel like there's judgment or I might have to curtail my activities or my labels. I might not get to feel the connection I actually want to. So,

Willow:

So really, curiosity is the name of the game. Like, get curious with whoever you're talking about. And stay curious, because these things change. Especially if somebody's kind of new to the game. I'm all of a sudden polyamory. It's like, okay, what does that mean for you today, versus tomorrow, versus three months from

Leah:

Right, versus the new relationship you're in right now,

Joli:

Right. Especially if

Leah:

new relationships, yeah, they, if they're not asking each other these questions, um, they may think one person feels the same way they do.

Joli:

Right. And you,

Leah:

different ideas.

Joli:

and sometimes when we, we feel aligned philosophically. To a particular relationship structure, but our body hasn't caught up because we've still got all like, we have all of our history and all of our modeling. And then we're out in this culture that will, let's be real, stigmatize most forms of non monogamy. And so we have to allow for that. So if I'm dating somebody who's been open for less than five years, or who has been socially monogamous most of that time, I know they're still figuring out what this means for them contextually in a broader way. Playground, right? And, and so are their partners. And then, then we get into issues of influence. How my partner's partners, my metamors, my partner's partners, how those people are going through their process will then influence how my partners are going through their process, which then influences my life. We very quickly feel the reality that we are all connected. And that's true in our friendships too, but we tend not to think about it as much. Like if I have a friend who goes through a divorce. I can feel that. I absolutely feel how that affects my life. So when people are exploring, I want you to think about that, that web and how we're all connected and how we need to offer each other as much grace and patience as possible while also setting our boundaries. Because for some of us, we're like, you know what? Maybe I, maybe I don't have the bandwidth to be with a newbie right now. For others, we're like, yeah, absolutely. I'm, I'm into that. I, I will be in this position of, of wonder and mystery with you.

Willow:

One of the things Leah always says is permission to be human. Permission to fuck up. Permission to not get it right. You know, especially as we're exploring new frontiers. Because, um, and it's gonna, you know, messiness happens. Wherever there's humans, there's human shit. And so, we're gonna be dealing with that. Uh, regardless of monogamy, non monogamy, any of it, you know. So, it's how we handle it with grace. is the key.

Leah:

kind of like that psychic outhouse, you know, like we don't know what we don't know about ourselves until we're suddenly thrust into a part of our subconscious that comes up to the surface that starts to, um, want to demand or want to be needs more control or is confused. And we have no idea that it's connected to, you know, which brings me to like attachment styles, right? Like if we have a Um, a pro, uh, a parent or a caregiver, right, who's, who were dependent on growing up and they have certain attachment styles that informs our attachment style. And so like, I know for me, I was reacting to wanting to be in open relationships and it realizes at the time. Maybe I did a little bit. It was like, I, I feel like my parents got divorced. My dad cheated. My mom could have forgiven it, but he actually wanted out for other reasons. The divorce was just a messy way of doing it. I mean, the affair was just a messy way of doing it. And for me, it was like, look, I don't want to control anybody. I just want there to be love. I want there to be honesty. And so the thing I was reacting to was dishonesty. Cheating is dishonest. I want to have a choice. You want to fuck somebody else? Great. Let's talk about it. Then I can be in or out. And so that was like my defining like motivation of going open relationships is the way to go, man.

Joli:

Which,

Leah:

let's just be honest with each other.

Joli:

right, which, let's just name though, not everyone experiences honesty the same way. I mean, I naively popped into the shower at two o'clock in the morning and told my first husband that I had a crush on somebody and blew up my first marriage. Like, just because I was so naive. I was like, it's okay. The truth will out everything like this. This will be fine. Oh my. 45 days later, I was on divorce track.

Leah:

Wow.

Joli:

I do not just recommend this, like, the idea that we always need to say everything. However, I am a bit, I, like, I, I love saying everything. I love just saying all the things.

Leah:

Right, right. Especially if you're a verbal processor.

Joli:

yeah. So sometimes people come to me and they're like, I told my partner that I wanted an open relationship and they were coming at it from this perspective of I want to talk about this. I don't know what it'll look like. This is just an exploration and other people receive that. Their partner may receive that as something's wrong with me. You don't love me anymore. Why am I not enough? Right. And, and they're, they just got hit by a bullet train. They didn't ask for. So we have to recognize that even just questioning this. Is the beginning of actually a conscious relationship for a lot of people. A lot of people go just fine for years or decades. I often will see people who are, they've been together between 15 and 35 years. And they're like, one of us said the thing and now it can't be unsaid. One of us said, what if we, and now we have, we're in the mystery. And if both people can be in the mystery together, awesome. Because then we can tell the truth and we can be in the, Hey, that doesn't necessarily mean just because I say I want to fuck somebody else doesn't mean I'm going to, just because I say I want an open relationship doesn't mean it's got to be my way or the highway, but assumptions start getting made and our attachment style tendencies start playing out and yeah, yeah. And then jealousy. Like runs right into, right? Like we wind up with all this stuff and most of us don't actually know how to have the conversation. And then there's, and then there's like a million more conversations behind that. So like, that was just one conversation. And then we need to have an ongoing dialogue that will begin a conscious relating process, no matter what relationship style you eventually choose.

Leah:

Well, I think you're hitting on an important word and that is conscious. I think that the, the big thing that I believe Polyamory in particular has, has been spearheading is this desire to be conscious. Is a desire to like, you know, come to the table and to be honest with ourselves first and then to hopefully be honest with our loved ones. Trusting, hoping, wishing that there's enough emotional capital in place that we can walk each other through it. And, and when we think of it that way, really having a secure attachment style is, is the thing to sort of track. And so, I guess my question for you is like, how do you start? And, and let me give you a picture. It's like, You have deep desires, right? This person has deep desires to want to play outside of the box, knows, has a feeling that there's a way to explore love and sex and pleasure and intimacy that could take them to higher, deeper, interesting realms, right? That could make life exciting and rich and fun. And now what? All right, maybe they're, we're either, maybe they're in a semi serious relationship and they, they want to, they, they don't want to let, they don't want this person to go away. They like what's happening. They want to keep going. They don't want to fuck it up. So, what now?

Joli:

Okay, I, the beautiful thing about a case study, about a scenario like this is, I, I have, like, there are a whole bunch of people just rushed to the forefront to share their stories in my head, because I deal with this all day, every day. But the number one thing that people tend to have in common who do this well is that they were already in an ongoing discussion about how relationships work. So rather than, I think a lot of people do rush to say, The, your best outcome will come from people with secure attachment. I think your best outcomes come from people who are already committed to having their relationships be an ongoing conversation and an ongoing discovery together.

Willow:

So their attachment style is not as important as just, like, their, their commitment to relationship,

Joli:

earned secure attachment myself, but disorganized is my, my like go to, uh, and I have lots of clients who do. So like we, I just want to be reductive and say that we

Leah:

I love that. You don't have to be perfect

Joli:

no, no.

Willow:

I also think that the attachment styles depend on the security of the relationship. I mean, I've never thought of myself as an anxious attachment, but I've certainly had moments of feeling that way. I'm like, oh, now I know what those people who claim I'm anxious attached are feeling like based on a scenario or a certain relationship. You know, it depends on what you're in. It shifts, I think.

Joli:

So if you, if you present me this situation where somebody, they're in a semi serious relationship. So I'm going to take that to mean that they have. Been having an ongoing conversation about how they are escalating, how they're riding what we would call, Amy Grand named this, the relationship escalator. Um, so up the escalator goes, and first we're dating, and maybe we're dating multiple people, and maybe there's an assumption at some point that dating multiple people is escalating. antithetical to the premise that this relationship becomes important, right? So let's say we're right at that point of relationship escalating, where I think my partner probably is going to assume that we won't see anyone else. Because that's the way to claim that status of our relationship is important. But I also feel the capacity to either love multiple people, or to interact with them in erotic ways, or like, whichever scenario I see as a possibility for me. The question is, how do I share this information with the other? And if you're already in this ongoing dynamic conversation about how relationships can work, how they work for other people, if, if relating is a topic that you can talk about, cool, then you already can. You can start by just, you can even just start by floating some test balloons. Put some, uh, put some episodes of a TV show that has some examples of non monogamy in it, put, you know, watch a film and just see what their reaction is, have a meta conversation and see. What's, what going on there? Do all of a sudden does the hammer of morality come flying out of their back pocket? And that doesn't mean that you should just give in. If, if all of a sudden they have this big emotional reaction to somebody on the screen, I'm not saying you should just, okay, put that back in your pocket. Nothing's wrong with your desire, but you're now gonna have a little bit more information about the fact that this person doesn't know what they don't know about non monogamy. And that is the case for almost everyone, even people who have done non monogamy before. 20 percent of people. That's, that's roughly the percentage of people in America who have tried and, and participated in a non monogamous relating form at some point in their life. That's a lot of people. That's the same number as

Leah:

Yeah, it really is.

Willow:

That is

Joli:

own cats, right? Like this is a lot of people.

Leah:

percentage than I would have guessed.

Joli:

Yeah. So even people who have done this before. May not believe that it can go well, right? A lot of people have had relationships go poorly. Some of those relationships may be open relationships. Now, who has had a monogamous relationship that's gone poorly? Nobody, right?

Willow:

Pretty

Leah:

Good,

Willow:

everyone.

Leah:

Joli, well said. No

Joli:

it's so normal to have a, Yeah, to have a history of like, oh, well, my, my first monogamous relationship didn't end well. I guess that's it. I'll have to just give up. Or to, can you imagine if everybody was like, I guess I can't be monogamous. I can't, I couldn't have a monogamous relationship. I'll have to be polyamorous now because monogamy didn't work. That's silly. It's just

Willow:

That is

Leah:

Well, it's so interesting, right? Because we also have very few examples of people who have been in a long term relationship really well, and we idolize those people. Now, when I think of the people who are doing poly really well, again, very seems like a smaller percentage of the people I know who are doing poly really poorly.

Willow:

Yeah.

Joli:

Well,

Leah:

You know, so that's

Joli:

think about What, what are the metrics by which you judge a relationship? And I think this is a really important question for each of us, whether you're, whether you want non monogamy or not, just as a sociological experiment, like sit with for a second. How do you judge? What are your internal judgments about people who are polyamorous? Or people who are swinging or people who are doing a don't ask, don't tell relationship, go through, take a little moral inventory for

Leah:

I got a list for you,

Joli:

Awesome. So, because right. And when you do all of a sudden now, I start to understand that all of those judgments, they come from my assumptions and most of them are based on unconscious, unreflective stuff. So let's deal with that because this is

Leah:

And ungenerous

Joli:

right. This is our, like, these are our people.

Leah:

Yeah, this is like, we have a lot of ungenerous assumptions about people. And I think we have that as a bad habit. We also are probably come by it naturally just with our negativity bias and how we're wired for survival. But I do think that this is a place where we could really grow a skill and be more generous with our assumptions versus stingy and, and sort of being so on the hook for judgy or going, well, that's not for me. Instead of actually being curious about, you know, well, what's working,

Joli:

right. And what does working mean? What does working mean? When, when I was first putting my dissertation, I was floating it out to my, to my committee members, and I was trying to find a chair for my committee. Um, the first four people I asked came back, these were brilliant scholars, people I really respected, came back with some version of that never works. But non monogamy never worked. Polyamory doesn't. That doesn't really work. And that was exactly the same thing that all of my caring, wise elders told me 15 years ago when I came out and said, I am non monogamous. I'm going to be in polyamorous relationships. That never works. It took me so long to realize that what they were saying, they were telling on themselves. They had not internalized an experience of a functional non monogamous relationship. And I understand that that can make a lot of sense because There's stigma. So there aren't a ton of models out there. Now, I happen to be one now. I, my relationship, my core, like one that I get to show to the world because my partner is game, we're ridiculously happy. It's disgusting. People like, you'd just be, you'd be grossed out to just spend five minutes with us. We're so freaking happy. But most of us don't live out, right? All of my other partners that I have ever had, only one of them in 15 years has actually been my partner fully out, as much as I am. So we don't have the models. And so now cycle back to that question. What does it mean for a relationship to be working? If you're measuring it just by the metric of longevity. Well, then monogamy doesn't work either. So, like, divorce, and, and just staying married, but hating each other, and, like, cheating, all of these things.

Willow:

Well, I think happiness is the measure, right? That both people are happy

Leah:

happiness isn't though, but I don't,

Willow:

well and having

Leah:

happiness can't be because what

Willow:

Happiness is a part of it for sure.

Leah:

Yeah, but I mean, there's all sorts of reasons for life to make us not feel happy in the moment. That's not, to me, that's going, how are we, how resilient are we? Seems like, to me, a better measure for how well is the relationship is, how, how, how deep can we go in our intimacy when we have obstacles? Who are we when we face those, whether that's as a tribe or as a pair?

Joli:

right, so I hear happiness as one measure, resilience as another. My measure, for me, is, is this relationship helping me grow as an individual? Is it helping me on my individuation path? And if it's not, I'm not interested. So, like, pick your metrics. And I think all three of those have merit.

Willow:

Good. Yeah, you don't have to have

Joli:

there's not just one. Yeah. Like, so, but define it. Like, actually write it down. What makes a relationship work? And then,

Willow:

exercise. Everyone, like write

Joli:

write it down. And then get clear. And remember, not every relationship has to serve every purpose. I have a couple of relationships that, with people who I see maybe once or twice a year, um, they are hot as hell, the relationship is juicy, it fuels me erotically, it's awesome, I love that, and we say almost nothing to each other the rest of the time, I have no idea if we're resilient because we've never faced a challenge together. If it rains, we don't meet for our date. So I, really, what metrics do you want to have for this specific relationship? What is the purpose of this relationship? Yep. Write these things down, make it clear. That's the work of bringing it from the unconscious to consciousness.

Willow:

Yeah. Oh, it's super

Leah:

great advice. Um, you know what's interesting is I'm sort of, you know, reflecting on my life and where it is and monogamous and, um, monogamy. And I think, I think most people, if they looked at my life, my work and my marriage, they would come to the conclusion of monogamish. Um. depending on what we agreed was the definition. And, and then when I think about what gets me off, like in terms of my own private sexuality with myself, a lot of it is triadic. Um, a lot of the right, the erotica that gets me off the most is two on one, four on one, you know, type of scenarios. So it's interesting and yet I'm most comfortable in reality, staying on sort of the more, I like that I have my person. And, and so I'm just sort of sitting with where am I at in the floating of this? And what am I most comfortable with is having the freedom to make choices as we go along. To not necessarily pigeonhole me just because I spent 14 years in this in some with some unhealthy patterns and not a way to manage those well, not having enough support around us to to move forward in a way that felt really good. And so then I reacted, again, reacted into open relationship because of a parent's divorce, then had a lot of open relationship stuff that didn't feel healthy, and then reacted and went straight to monogamy to get safe again, and now I've got all this safety, and more and more desires to be more expressive and to be more expanded and to have other sexual experiences with other people, is something that occupies the brain space quite a bit, you know. But not at the risk Currently, you know, it's it's not like a need so much that needs to be fully acted out, so when what's my question in all of this? I don't know, any insights?

Joli:

Well, one of the things that floats right to the top is that I hear you having found some stability, some, some stability with a person, and that that has opened up space for you to consider expansivity for other

Leah:

I say so.

Joli:

Other people though, learn how to be resilient within, and to be primarily partnered to themselves. And instead, they realize that there's this capacity for expansivity, for multiple partners, or new sexual experiences, because they have deeply rooted into their security and self. Those are two different paths. Both are completely valid. Both can work. And They can lead to a place where your life on the outside might look very similar, but the, but the starting point might be different and neither is right or wrong.

Leah:

I think you can do both at the same time.

Joli:

Absolutely. But if you, if you don't currently have a partner, I just want to highlight some people imagine that they have to get into a monogamous or monogamous partnership and make that safe and secure before they can explore non monogamously.

Leah:

Oh interesting.

Joli:

Actually the case. You can absolutely be coming at this. And I see people do it all the time. They're like, what I've been doing. Hasn't been working. What if I decide to approach my relating in a completely different way and I come into it and I'm open to multiplicity of, of partnership without forcing, like I'm not, I'm just going to be open to it and I'm going to see what happens. And so those people might identify as solo polyamorous.

Leah:

Uh

Joli:

Or not. They, they might be in a space where they're like, I don't know, maybe I'll find myself in a, um, nesting partnership or an anchor partnership where I, I do commit more of my resources and energy to one person. I don't know yet. And what happened

Leah:

I love that.

Willow:

yeah, totally. I had a friends say to me one time, I'm in a polyamorous relationship with myself.

Joli:

Yeah, like,

Willow:

Hang on, let me check in with myself before I go. You know, I mean, and ultimately, that's what we all want to be doing is like having that deep inner connection with, with self, with inner beloved, so that whatever outer beloveds come along, we are in our own wholeness and, um, we can bring that to the table

Leah:

I imagine that's also like defined by kind of stages in life, right? So depending on how old you are and where you're at with family creating and having kids and co parenting and multiple co parenting

Willow:

let's talk about parenting and all

Leah:

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Joli:

have seven kids, so sure, let's go for it.

Willow:

children? Yes!

Leah:

let's, tell us everything!

Willow:

Even though we're at time, I mean, we might have to have you back on the show.

Leah:

yeah,

Joli:

I mean, it, it is funny for me, I, that, when that piece gets dropped in, a lot of people are like, wait, hang on, my brain has to catch up, because I was envisioning this Dr. Joli person, and I was envisioning this, like, free flowing, hippie dippie, like, woo! Do you have seven children? Yeah, they all played soccer. It's very, very boring over here. I homeschooled them before, like, I homeschooled them the whole time. Um, so,

Leah:

that's so

Joli:

I, my life from the outside looks incredibly mundane and boring. It's very, Hashtag wholesome polyamory. It's not, it's, it's not, uh, it's not what you might imagine, but here's the thing. I, I jumped ship from a first marriage, um, into non monogamy. I had four little children I had birthed, and then I wound up married to someone with three children who I had known their whole lives. I've known my current anchor partner his whole life. Um, So these children who call me mom, these seven children, all have existed and grown up. They are now 16 to 24. So they went through their childhoods being raised in a household where it was normal to have multiple partners or to live with multiple

Willow:

That is a different experience for a

Leah:

I

Willow:

that's amazing.

Joli:

different. And here's the thing. All of my kids so far are like, eh, I think monogamy probably for me. I don't know. It's all very complicated. They're like, ah, maybe. So there, I think there is something to the idea that we may go through phases of life where one relationship structure just fits the bill better for our capacity, for what we're getting out of life. But when it comes to raising children, Oh man, have more parents. It's awesome. I, personally, I love it. I love it. My kids have lots of parents.

Willow:

moms and two dads to every one child, really.

Joli:

don't be, it's

Willow:

That's tribal raising, right?

Leah:

brings us back to community. And people who like like man like minded values perhaps or at least respect for very differing values, high regard for the people in their life, high regard for their former partners if they're if they're no longer together and we have a multiple parents.

Joli:

right,

Leah:

I think that this is sort of like the evolutionary path on some level this more conscious way of taking Look, how do we care for

Joli:

right, because we, we, we devoid, we left, we left behind the way that family had existed for millennia, and we left it behind and we're presented with this one model of how we should relate, and it's actually not very old, right? Like, the church in like, what, 1364, the church handed down this doctrine of like, marriage and property, and so then you have several hundred years of like, Marriages for property ownership and the patriarchy. And then about 150 years ago, you get the, your marriage should be romantic and you should be in choice and they should be your best friend and your helpmate and all of the things. That's only 150 years old. You can read Stephanie Kuntz on that. Her work's amazing. Read that. That's just not that long. And there are, like, we, we have many other potential models, but humans tend to be a little narrowly focused and we can only remember, like, maybe our parents and our grandparents generation and we forget that humans have existed a long time and there are a lot of ways to do things. And I think that the solution there isn't so much to try to go back. There's not some pure way to go back to, but there is inner knowledge. There's archetypal knowledge in you that says, Connecting isn't a one way thing. Connecting is important for all humans and it can be met in so many different ways. So if you can connect to yourself, And then start listening for what do you actually want? How do you want to be using relationship as a growth oriented experience?

Willow:

Yeah, so powerful. Oh my god, I love this. Such a great conversation, Joli Hamilton. Thank you so much for being with us today. Tell us, um, how we can find you. How can our listeners find

Joli:

Yeah. So if you're wondering if this is for you, I think, find me by going over to jolyquiz. com. J O L I Q U I Z. com. It's a 10 question quiz based out of my research to just place you somewhere on the spectrum from like, Ooh, I am so ready for this. Bring it on all the way down to. You might have some foundations to build and we need to take a beat. And from there, you'll be invited to join me for a salon where I describe the five pillars of conscious, healthy, open, relating, the things that you really need to have in place. I, if I could offer everybody one thing, it would be get into a scenario where you're being conscious about your relationships. So head over there. You can also find me online on all of the platforms@DrJoli_Hamilton.

Willow:

Awesome.

Leah:

be sure to have links in the show notes and such an important conversation. I'm going to take your quiz. I'm going to ask my husband to take the quiz. That should be a wonderful dinner starter and, um, a great party starter too, if you ask me. So, uh, we'll, we'll have lots of fun. Be sure to check that out and be sure to stay tuned for The Dish, where Dr. Willow and I are going to hash out all these goodies and, Please subscribe and comment. Your comments make the show go round. Dr. Joli, thank you so much for being here today.

Joli:

Thanks for having me, both of you. so much.

Leah:

Love, love, love!

Announcer:

Now, our favorite part, the dish.

Leah:

Perfect time to say wuji!

Willow:

Well, that conversation opened me up to poly Emery more than ever before. I mean, I always have this idea about poly that it's going to be overwhelming to my system. Like I don't want to spend a, I feel like processing with one primary partner is plenty of processing to do. I feel like for me, I don't. Come into this world with like a ton of chi, you know, that's why I do what I do to cultivate my chi constantly, so that I have more energy. Um, and I do have more energy than I've ever had in my life, but I, and I've always sort of erred more on the side of monogamish, like let's do it together, you know, we can get into scenarios. But we're going to do it in the name of, of deepening our union and our relationship. And so, um, so I've sort of always been like this to Polly, but you know, I just, I loved her openness about what it actually is and how it can be defined in any way that really works for you. So, you know, I

Leah:

Yeah, I really appreciated her, um, it's like, it really starts, I think, first with your own relationship to yourself. What is it that you really want and why? Um, and, and what are the things that And then just instead of making a bunch of decisions, start having conversations so you can continue to sort of flush out, parse out the things that, um, are, that attract you and the stuff that repels you. And, and then to be curious about how other people feel about that inside themselves and, and what they, and then if you're in relationships, um, What do you have in common? What don't you have in common? Where can you meet each other? Where would you like to leave some things off the table? Um, I

Willow:

It's an ongoing conversation and when you can come to it with curiosity rather than judgment and, and, uh, you know, preconceived ideas, the more potential there is to deepen your intimacy and your connection. I mean, one of the things she said that was so cool is like, you know, I think about this, doesn't mean I'm going to do it, but, you know, it's a thought that I have and, I mean, you're really playing in that edge, in that realm right now with BDSM and

Leah:

don't know that I'm really playing with that edge as much as I'm thinking about that edge. I

Willow:

Well, that's what I mean. You think about it. That's what I mean. That, that edge of like, okay, I've come to this place where I'm thinking about it. I'm not necessarily doing it, but yeah.

Leah:

out but not land anywhere, honestly. I'm not really landing anywhere except My marriage is so important to me. I don't want to do anything to fuck it up. That I'm clear about. Um. Yeah, but thinking about all of this is not going to result in that, that much I know. Um, and so as I've taken chances, uh, in certain friendships, describing certain desires, I've had different experiences of like, like revealing the desire for the first time and having a really heightened awareness of it and a flush of it and kind of wanting to live it out. And then Sharing that with another friend, and then sharing that with another friend, and then sharing that with another friend. The more times I share the desire of what would be hot for me,

Willow:

Mm

Leah:

that is not of the norm traditional relationship

Willow:

hmm. Mm

Leah:

um, the less the desire becomes.

Willow:

That's very

Leah:

Isn't that weird? I'm really grappling with that right

Willow:

That's very interesting. It's like you play it out in your mind so much. I wonder if that sort of ties into our earlier interview, which was about porn addiction. You know, it's like, you see a certain level of pornography for a certain amount of time, and then you need more. You need it to get dirtier or more shadowy.

Leah:

And I'm curious if the sharing of it is the thing that actually dilutes the desire. I mean, that's what I'm experiencing so far. It's like, if I had kept it more private, if I'd only told one person, my hunch is that it would be a lot more alive

Willow:

Of a charge for you?

Leah:

And now it's like, well, that was just really fun to have in my head. I actually Don't think I even want to even, I wouldn't even consider playing it out anymore. But that first time I shared it, Oh, I was, I could really consider it. So it's leaving me actually feeling a little confused. Um, but safer on some level because some desires aren't exactly, have I flushed them all out with Matt to go, how do you feel about this? Um,

Willow:

Yeah, well, I think that would be a

Leah:

the table, especially if there's no reason to.

Willow:

Yeah, exactly. I think that would be an interesting experiment though. The next time you have a scene or a scenario in your mind, just like keep it to yourself and see if it lasts longer. Probably the playing out, as you're speaking it out, you're imagining you're playing it out. So it's

Leah:

Well, here's another curveball in it. I'm relieved that the desire is diminished.

Willow:

right, of course, because you don't want to upset the marriage. Of

Leah:

Right. So I'm kind of like, I think I'll just keep going with the way I'm going. I actually think it's healthier for me to express my desires, to

Willow:

But a good

Leah:

And now I trust myself more about

Willow:

name of research, though, for us, so that

Leah:

I'm dedicated to, um.

Willow:

can always tell all of us about it later, to diminish it.

Leah:

Everybody, I dedicate my body to science. I am fully committed to this adventure.

Willow:

would last longer and the charge would still be there, you

Leah:

But, but you know, it's almost like I feel better that the charge has dissipated. I, I, there's, I like the idea of like Being fearless with my desires and my ability to communicate them out loud. And now I feel like I can have even more conversations with Matthew about maybe some of the things I wouldn't want him to get upset about because some of these fantasies don't include him.

Willow:

Although they could.

Leah:

Sure, sure, if I wanted to follow all of them out, but now it's like, okay, I've said them out loud, so they're no longer a secret. And maybe that also has to do with my shit with secrets. You know, there is a, there is a secret theme that is played out in my life that has felt dangerous and scary. And, and so therefore it can be erotic, but therefore it could be dysfunctional. And so for me, I'm kind of like, how do I stay in the middle?

Willow:

Well, I think that's

Leah:

not supposed to be a psychological, um, day for Leah. Let's find out how fucked up Leah is. Or maybe it's not fucked up. Maybe I don't

Willow:

I mean, it's normal. It's just normal. And I think it brings up a really good point of, you know, for, for all of us, it's like, where, where is that fine balance? Where is that fine line? Because we are, when we're, when we're expanding and exploring our sexuality and what feels right. You know, quote unquote, good or bad for us, we're, are, are, we're edging, we're expanding that edge and that line is, so keeping your finger on the pulse. That's what I'm seeing you as having a good finger on your pulse of the way that it's shifting as you are shifting and evolving. And I think that's the, the most that you can hope for.

Leah:

Yeah, I think to just sum it up, I think my motivation in this is to be more conscientious, like to be more conscious, to not have subconscious motivation, but to see the motivation consciously. And, and then also to be honest about my desires, to be really authentic about that, like learning how to do that more and more. And then third, being nonjudgmental. Taking it out into the light and looking at it and going, well, isn't that interesting? Like it's neither right or wrong. It's not unhealthy or healthy. It's just what is and to be in the ism. And I think if I can do that for myself, I'll even be better at doing it for others. And there's something about that, those two that go together. Wanting it for myself, but wanting to be that even more for other people to be that safe, um, conditional. Unjudgmental vehicle. So, look at me.

Willow:

Well, there you go.

Leah:

So everybody, write to us your desires, all the dirty ones, please.

Willow:

And tell us where you're at on the scale of monogamish to polyamory and non monogamy.

Leah:

Yeah, take that quiz and tell us what you

Willow:

Yeah, let us know what you think.

Leah:

Yeah. Okay. Love you. Ciao.

Announcer:

Thanks for tuning in. This episode was hosted by Tantric Sex Master Coach and Positive Psychology Facilitator, Leah Piper, as well as by Chinese and Functional Medicine Doctor and Taoist Sexology Teacher, Dr. Willow Brown. Don't forget, your comments, likes, subscribes, and suggestions matter. Let's realize this new world together.

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Leah Piper

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